Scoreboards (for the last time i swear!) [lets poll]

Warhammer 40,000: Darktide General Discussion
41

But im looking at it from a mathmatical point of view, as the amount of variables grow arithmetically the outcomes grow logarithimcally.

a little thought experiment, imagine you dont know how many sides a coin has and someone is flipping one and calling heads and tails , how many repetitions would you need to hear before you know with any degree of surety that it has 2 sides?
4 if you have a tolerance for risk 8 if you want your variance to be below 10% but you will never be sure and more reps is always better.

Now any tide game features a staggering array of variables, the players, the builds, the load outs, the AI director . the level layout, variations in movement , aim, tiredness, hunger and on it goes.

with complex systems you get more and more “butterfly” affects the most critical event in an entire run the one that all success hinged oncould end up being who entered a room first. millions of little variables each with up to complex outcomes all multiplied together and then you have a single lone repitition

it is mathmatically equivalent to dipping a cup in the ocean and proclaiming there are no fish left in the sea.

Sure you get one snapshot of possible performance and you can take a very broad conclusion from it, but your better off relying on just paying attention to how you did as your far less likely to get false results and there is no accuracy in either.

and the sheer mathmatical variance isnt even the biggest issue, its just the easy to explain one!

The score card measures a select few aspect of a players performance , taken together you can see how the team performed (within the the inherent wild variance)

but and this is the big one, perormance is utterly irrelevant , capacity is what matters

now this is a lot harder to explain imagine testing a bulletproof vest unless your firing at it with real ammo who cares? dropping a bullet or throwing one isnt showign you anything its showing performance not capacity.

Likewise in a tide game its only your capacity when stressed that matters not your performance in farm.

so as you and your team get better and your capacity increases your performance becomes less and less representative of what you can actually do.

hmm ill admit i put no real reflection into this one im struggling to see how you can view it as anything else , its a score system that ranks players based on the amount of kills made in a zero sum game, you dont see that as being measured comparatively? this is how players are ranked and rewarded in competitive games. your gonna have to help me here, if that score card isnt competitive what is it?

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42

Even though you wrote a lot.
This is not really an argument to remove it.

That’s like ripping out the fuel gage from your car because the gas that is left depends on so many variables that it is better to just pay attention while you’re driving.

If the game that was played had special circumstances that had a major impact on someones scores the people will know that because they played it.

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43

And that is exactly your problem and why it has nothing to do with scoreboard. You fail to see it from other, quite common, perspective. As tool/resource for us to analyze for self-improvement. That does not make scoreboard bad, only that your perception is too limited becasue you can’t comprehend that others view same thing differently. The scoreboard is what you make out of it.

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44

That is an incredibly long winded rephrasing of what you’ve already said. Which, yet again I’ll point out that you can consider all those variables while also using the stats as an additional data point to help you analyze things. You’re basically advocating for not using the weather channel because you can look outside. I mean, sure, you could, but if you want to know more you’d look and check.

And part of improving when doing well is comparing previous things and striving to do better. Stats are part of this. I’m all for doing your best to improve at these sorts of games, I’ve been doing challenge runs in them for over a decade, since L4D2. It gets significantly easier to gauge performance with some stats to help you, particularly with the RPG mechanics thrown into the mix.

It’s literally just numbers of what people did in the match. If you choose to compare them in a competitive manner that’s on you. Like I also said earlier, I’m not going to be striving for special kills on a class like foot knight/be upset if I don’t “win” at it on the final tally.

For an extremely long time I played conflag staff Unchained, usually doing pretty solid on the damage front but the true utility came from being able to stumble enemies/protect my team constantly. I used the damage stat as a way to try to determine how much I could improve damage wise while simultaneously continuing to protect my team. Without a damage stat to back it up/compare on occasion, sure, I could just go by ‘feel’ and try to do more damage overall but there’s no way to verify I’m actually accomplishing that.

On bounty hunter I’m going to be doing my best to maximize special/elite kills/boss damage.

Etc, etc, etc. There’s numerous ways you can use the stats page without turning it into some sort of competition.

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45

i don’t know if someone said it already but why not make the scoreboard personal?
you can view your stats and that’s all
and not the stats of the others members of you squad

46

im struggling to see how you can view it as anything else , its a score system that ranks players based on the amount of kills made in a zero sum game, you dont see that as being measured comparatively?

It is just anecdotal and maybe a bit embarrassing. Not meant as an argument pro scoreboard in general but rather an example of non-competitive use.

When I started VT2 I played mainly with horde-clearing weapons because I was green and thought that is the way to go. One of my first transitions was towards the executioner’s sword of Kruber because we often failed in killing elites fast enough and I read that it is a good elite killer. After figuring out when to use heavies I still wasn’t doing well in the elite killing department comparatively. I tracked my stats over many games and couldn’t figure it out. Of course, I knew headshot-dmg = good and the sword has an even bigger amplifier, duh. But I always thought I am hitting as many headshots as anyone else. The scoreboards proved me wrong. My headshot ratio was almost always pretty bad. Not just with elites, but in general. After specifically focusing on getting better at headshots my kills in general didn’t go up by a lot because we were playing on Champion and non-elites mostly died from non-headshots anyway. But my elite kills on the scoreboard went up a lot because suddenly I was one-shotting Stormvermins and Berserkers way more often.

Could I have figured that out without the scoreboard? Probably. Or I might have put the sword aside and deemed it as bad. It definitely helped streamline the process, pointed me in the right direction, and verified my results.

1 Like
47

I don’t really want to wade until the whole thread again just now, but wanted to snap a bit on your reply.

Headshot % gives the kind of information that seems likely to be useful in a scoreboard. In V2 it will depend a bit on the optimal attack pattern of the weapon you are using but, as a percentage it scales itself, is easier to divorce from all of the variables in a run (yeah, it matters if you got chaos spawn but…). Also it doesn’t seem like it gives much incentive to anti-team behaviour. It is the sort of thing you can compete with your friends about.

I don’t know what others think, but if I were redesigning a scoreboard I’d think headshot % would be a useful include.

48

I personally don’t care about the scoreboard. With that said IF a scoreboard is added it should have more statistics then Vermintide. See the mod Peregrinaje: Ubersreik Five for example.

Also the scoreboard should only show your own score & any mod that adds so you see other people’s score should not be approved. They should only work in the modded realm. For the simple reason that it would annoy the little rage babies that think circles mean high skill.

49

Sorry to say but so far it seems it annoys more people who THINK people that get green circles are automatically all “rage babies”. I never ever said anything to anyone regarding scoreboard in V2, but I do enjoy seeing that I did better becasue why shouldn’t I? It’s my own satisfaction, I don’t need to write in chat about that.

Also if I don’t see other players stats (or just stats of whole team): how will I know how I did? Did I pull my weight? Was I contributing? Did I do my class job? Was I carried, be a drag or I was fairy on similar level?

50

So far 69,23% voted that they want the scoreboard back, an extended version of it or as much information as possible.
Just wanted to point that out.
Top-3 voted things.

1 Like
51

I never said that all people that get circles are rage babies. If you don’t rage in chat when you think other people are worse then you, you are not a rage baby. Good for you, keep it up.

The scoreboard doesn’t tell you any of that & that’s the problem with the scoreboard, people think it shows them how they are doing in the game. You should be able to tell that from just analyzing your own playstyle.

What killed me?
Why did it kill me?
Was I out of position?
Is there a better position in this situation?
Did I clearly communicate my intentions?
etc.

For example, the kill number. A high number doesn’t necessarily mean that you are pulling your weight & a low number doesn’t necessarily mean you are not pulling your weight.
If a horde is coming from one direction I often stay back & cover the rear because a lot of the time something sneaks up on the group & wipe you. When the rest of the team have killed the front horde all of them turn & go for the horde I’m holding down. Not for a second is anyone thinking about staying back & making sure stragglers are not sneaking up on us.
Even when I’m using the crank gun or a flamethrower people just run into the line of fire like mindless, well skaven slaves. Depending on if it’s the second or third horde wave I then switch sides to cover the rare again. Often an armoured straggler is sneaking up behind my team & sometimes I don’t even stop it from downing a teammate. I just watch and admire the stupidity of my team.

Same thing with monsters. Depending on what class I’m playing I’m not always going straight for the monster. I keep an eye on the mini wave of trash that always spawn & when that’s taken care of I’m focusing on the monster. If a horde comes I go for the horde making sure the monster killer (if we have one) can do their thing.
I even have to do this as the monster killer sometimes because no one else is thinking about switching when they hear the horde coming.

So no. The scoreboard doesn’t tell you if you are pulling your weight or not. Learning from mistakes & understanding your role in the group. Also seeing weaknesses in the group & trying to fill that gap. That’s how you know if you are pulling your own weight. A scoreboard can tell you that.

Now statistics are good for more specific personal goals & improvements.
Let’s say I’m trying to make a damage over time (DoT) build. Then it would be great to know how much DoT i did or the average damage each tick did.
Or If I’m trying to increase my damage to monsters I would like to know how much damage each attack did. How many critical hits did I get & how much damage did the critical attacks do compared to the regular hits. How much damage an attack did with the effect of a potion or other effects.

So no, you don’t need to see other people’s scores or statistics to know how you’re doing. The scoreboard is there for the same reason casinos have pleasant sounds & lights flashing, it creates a satisfying feeling in some peoples brains. That’s all it is.

2 Likes
52

We do all of this as well. We know how to play. I played the game for 3000 hours.
But I might have stopped after 1000 if it wasn’t for the scoreboard to be honest.
I have my favorite gear for every character in red with sick skins.
I have like 3000 chests I didn’t open.
I regularly play cataclysm twitch or deeds or deeds + twitch to have challenge.
The only thing that is constantly there providing any kind of endgame goal is the scoreboard.
I want to see the numbers go up up up, my friend.
There is nothing else left.

Well, ok I can try different gear and change it up a bit.
But then, again, I want to see my scores so I can compare to the average values I had with my other weapon.

53

I analyze my own playstyle based on metrics too. I don’t know what you don’t understand. Yes, scoreboard should have been expanded and improved in Darktide but what are you talking about?

I give you examples:

  1. “Damage taken”. I took least damage from all party members. Especially if I play as melee character: that is big performance metric. Not only I was in front but I also took least damage.

  2. “Special Kills”. If I play class like Waystalker or Bounty Hunter and I don’t have most special kills: then clearly I did something wrong. Those classes are designed to be best special killers and It’s expected from them to do that. If I had let’s say Captain, Grail Knight and Ironbreaker and I had less special killed than Captain or Ironbreaker then I was either missing shots too often, I was dead too much or I was positioning badly and tie in melee too often and being unable to snipe.

  3. “Elite Kills”. There are classes that exceed with Elite Kills. Depending on party composition I can easy judge from scoreboard if I was doing well or not. If we had lets say meta Battle Wizard, Grail Knight and let’s Ironbreaker and handmaiden I can say that if everyone play their role Grail Knight would have most elite kills. However if maps is heavy on patrols I can expect high amount of kills from Ironbreaker if has trollhammer or from Sienna if she runs Famished Flame build. Depends who I was I can say if I was struggling or simply others were playing better by looking at stats.

  4. “Melee kills”. Easy, if I am the only full melee powerhouse in party like Grail Knight or Zealot and I have least or 2nd/3rd amount of Melee Kills then I clearly was outmatched by other players (if they played better, not get killed etc.) or I am just not good enough yet on fron line.

  5. “Revives”. If I play Handmaiden I expect to have the most revives. If team was going down a lot and someone else has the most amount of Revives then clearly I was either positioning poorly or wasting my Ult too often. Also party members could play badly and split too much but that can be clearly seen in game. Similar with Foot Knight.

  6. “Monster Damage”. If I play Shade for example I should be here with top damage in most cases. If not then I was playing bad, dead or something out-did me which also shows in stat screen (the other player with most boss damage). I can judge from this metric if I did my job or not (plus other stats). Do I play with Huntress talent? Then I should have high headshots stat too or else I played sub-optimally by not using maximum power of my superb headshot damage.

And so on. Is Scoreboard in V2 perfect? No. It has problems, some metrics are useless like “Kills” and lack of some metrics like “enemies staggered”, “allies healed”, “potions/medkits used” etc. should be included. But it doesn’t mean I can’t get good information from it. And the clearly can make stats screen way better for Darktide now that they have experience from V2.

3 Likes
54

Since I’m playing a lot of warrior priest lately now I really like the “Saves” stat in the scoreboard.
In some games I pick up almost everyone who gets downed with the skill, really handy.
At the end I can see I saved 8 times or whatever.

At first I didn’t do a whole lot of damage with the two-handed hammer.
I mean, well, in a team with grail knight and bounty hunter you can forget to get the most kills anyway.
That’s just how it is, man.

So, now I’m almost never blocking with the dude and it works pretty well I can just constantly spam attacks with half a stormvermin patrol in front of me and it staggers them to hell.
Might be risky, sure, but when enemies are staggered nonstop other people can snipe them.

Sometimes risky behaviour can be good it’s not always selfish.

55

You don’t need to know other people’s score for any of the things you mentioned. All you would need to know is the percentage of kills/damage/damage taken/ etc. you did.

If you have to ask yourself if you killed the most specials or elites you have most likely already answered the question. If you are not aware that elites & specials have spawned &/or if they have been killed you have then not paid attention.
Even then it’s not about who killed the most elites or specials. The important part is to keep the specials & elites at bay, making sure the group is not caught off guard by a storm during a monster or horde.
If you stopped a storm from being cast during a horde but at the end someone else killed more specials then you during the calm part of running from point A to B killing roaming enemies. You still pulled your weight because it’s not about who killed the most but if you did your role.

The circles are only for your satisfaction, nothing more. It’s not a measurement of how good you are.

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56

Well, yes again we know all of this.
We know every round is unique and you can’t read everything from the scoreboard.
I fail to see how this is an argument to remove the scoreboard though as that is something additional for after the game.

You seem to think we are blind during the game and echolocating our way through only to magically recover when the scoreboard is visible.
We do pay attention to what happens it’s just that we also want the scoreboard.

There is really no point in explaining to people for the 101th time that, no, actually the scoreboard is useless.
We already disagreed, there is simply no point anymore.

57

The circles are only for your satisfaction, nothing more. It’s not a measurement of how good you are.

It’s not about the circles it is about the numbers. And I am honestly astonished by how you didn’t understand that bit at least. Benny89 said everything there is to say with plenty of examples and you just refuse to see this perspective.

58

Wow ok I tried my best to use logical arguments for you but you are so deep in your echo chamber it’s like talking to wall. I am out.

59

I’ll try saying this as bluntly as possible since you’re the exact type of person I’m referring to when I say there’s obstinate people who think that people are just obsessing over winning at the scoreboard.

Nobody. Gives. A. Crap. About. The. Circles.

It’s about the loss of information. If you can’t comprehend that very basic fact there’s zero further reason to engage with you. Remove the circles, and if they’re that determined to reduce the information we have, at least give us our personal stats vs the team wide stats. (Though even then it can be useful to look at just who was doing what when analyzing yourself, such as if you’re elite killer isn’t on their A game so your elite kills are somewhat higher than usual)

60

A lot of people have said that they want the competitive aspect, so you’re wrong? A lot of people seem to give a crap about the circles.