Scoreboard?

[MeatShield01]

@derpherp

There is an argument against it outside of the ‘toxicity’ thing that gets passed around.

Because it does genuinely discourage better teamwork.

I can’t count how many FPS games I’ve played where the BTB has people chasing K/D instead of flags leading to a loss. I wouldn’t be surprised if it led to even less people playing the low kill classes in DT so they can bloat their numbers too.

Discouraging better teamwork IS the toxic behavior FS was trying to avoid.

[RasMoti]

It’s so funny seeing some of the advocates showing
they are slightly toxic already and of course not getting it that they are

E-peen, idiotic, criebabies…

snowflakes comment incomming

I want more team stats thou.
Coherency, recoveries, revives, stacking damage…
Team based ELO maybe

[Schuetzenhaus]

I liked the suggestion of seeing your personal exact stats, and what % of that was in relation to the group.

If I’m a vet and I’m seeing I’m not getting as many kills against ranged units as the rest of my team, I know I need to improve there. If I’m an ogryn and I was out of coherency more than everyone else, I know I didn’t do my job well.

I just want something to help me see what it is I need to work on. I’ve had many VT2 games where I felt I was doing great, and then I realized I took more damage than everyone, and barely dealt any damage. My gut told me I played well, the stats showed me I didn’t. I miss that a lot here.

[Padds]

@Dags

I feel like people forget it’s fun to showcase your e-peen with big stats in games. No matter how hard they don’t want it to be true, it is.

i think you just proved the crybabies points.

@Osseric

When? All the official post I’ve seen were it wasn’t added because it would be “toxic” and that they had no plans to add it in the future.

bit before even closed beta we started in on this some very big threads lot of debate very little movement in any opinion.

@Keln

What’s with Swedish companies hating scoreboards then making them to be some insane thing to add back on when the community univocally asks for it?

ok well fatshark (and please note this is before we played DT so its based off the V2 experience) cited toxicity

i am also against at least the traditional V2 type of scoreboard. i believe it to be a negative impact on play. it is a competitive measurement of a co operative game and it doesnt do any of the things people claim, like show how good you or your build are … its all in this thread

The fallacy of the scoreboard

“I need to see my stats to know how well i did or my build performed” “i cant “just tell how it went!” i want proper numbers” Solid sensible arguments at first glance, but think about it how is the scoreboard more accurate a reflection than just noteing how you did in each situation as you play? If you want to test anything what do you need? as many repetitions as possible and as few variables as possible. Just imagine testing the stopping distance on your car with a selection of differing b…

and a few others if you want to go dig.

i do agree that DT is lacking pacing at the end of the game. in both the challenge of the supposed crescendo and the following reward (talking about the intrinsic “feels” here not loot/progrerssion) again i point back to left for dead 1 no mercy as being the gold standard of how to build a crescendo then reward the players with a job well done.
a scoreboard does provide a roar of the crowd i believe there are better much less intrusive options, cinematic kill cams, highlight reels, walking away with explosions in the background, music, lights etc.

[ComradeHX]

Next week.

[NewType]

scoreboards are a very powerful tool for improvement and testing/analysis. the tangible upsides far outweigh the theoritical downsides

[Schuetzenhaus]

I swear most people who are against them are talking about theoretical toxicity, or the potential of, rather than the amount there actually is. I’ve played over 400 hours in Vermintide 2, and I can only remember that happening once. I just asked a couple of my friends who has 1,500+ hours in it, they said maybe a couple. I know, I know. “Just because it doesn’t happen to me, it doesn’t mean it can’t happen to others”. But like… I really can’t help but feel this is such a rare occurrence since just about everyone I talked to say they’ve almost never seen it.

The overwhelming majority of people want a scoreboard. An absolute, tiny, tiny, tiny minority are actually toxic because of it. I’ve seen far more people with toxic character names than I have people who were shtty because of scoreboard screens. I’ve had far more people grief the team in-game. I just don’t believe it’s actually an issue.

[MeatShield01]

@Schuetzenhaus

I swear most people who are against them are talking about theoretical toxicity

No they’re not.

The toxicity of the score board was not due to people being toxic to others who had ‘bad scores’. That basically never happened, and when it did blocking was a perfectly good solution. It’s not the reason the score board was removed, that’s just a straw-man the pro scoreboard people like to hoist up, and tear down.

The toxicity of the score board was due to new and inexperienced players trying to get green circles at the determent of the team. This was an issue at the lower to mid level difficulties. They learned bad habits and were horrible players once they tried to play on champion. They either quit , or go back to the easier difficulties to play poorly, and reinforce the selfish behavior on other new players.

[Schuetzenhaus]

I just don’t agree with “circle chasers” behaving this way because of the scoreboard.

I’ve seen countless people in Darktide on the lower difficulties go on ahead/solo to chase kills. Why? Why is this behaviour here, yet there are no scoreboards? Because they haven’t learned the importance of teamplay, and killing things is fun. These players are just new and have not grasped the importance of staying together, and have decided that killing enemies is more fun. If anything, I’ve seen this behaviour MORE in Darktide than I have in VT2. And yet, Darktide has no scoreboards, and even has the coherency mechanic.

In VT2, If you play on legend and above, you almost never saw this. Because people have learned the importance to stick together. Similarly in DT, in Heresy and above, you didn’t see this much either from good groups. You see this same behaviour with lower difficulties in both games, so I don’t see how the scoreboard is responsible for that when a scoreboard is not present in one of them. This is just how people who are not very good at the game and want to have fun, play the game.

If you want to talk logical fallacies, false equivalences with people who are anti-scoreboard are looking at poor behaviours of low-level players who haven’t grasped core mechanics (deciding that killing things is more fun), and claiming the scoreboard is responsible. Can the scoreboard influence that? Sure, maybe a bit (though the fact that it exists in DT disproves that, IMO, but for arguments sake, let’s say it does). But I think the benefits of being able to factually analyze your performance and learn from it far outweighs that.

[jesper]

Toxic people will be toxic. The absence of a score board just means that it’s more difficult to improve. I’ve played with good and terrible players in both VT and Darktide. The scoreboard will not help there.

[MeatShield01]

@Schuetzenhaus

I just don’t agree with “circle chasers” behaving this way because of the scoreboard.

It doesn’t matter if you agree with the reason it was removed or not. It’s still the reason the score board was removed, not someone being rude about the score.

[Schuetzenhaus]

Well then I think the people who made that decision were wrong, and did so because of incorrect reasons. And as such should be re-instated because there are many valid reasons to want it back.

[derpherp]

People do chase K/D, and nothing in my experience has suggested that people will suddenly stop doing that.

Promoting team play is a very very valid reason to remove it.

That said, there are reasons to have it too. I guess we will just have to wait and see what they come up with when they add it back in.

[Axehilt]

Game definitely needs a scoreboard.

A lack of scoreboard also encourages toxicity, because players who are being carried keep thinking they’re doing fine and everyone else is screwing things up.

In fact I seem to recall a dev mentioning this somewhere, describing it as a way a player will (wrongly) walk away from a mission still feeling pretty good about it because they lost due to their bad teammates – and that fiction would shatter if they were faced with hard stats showing they had like half the kills/damage and quadruple the damage taken.

[Schuetzenhaus]

But in DT the scoreboard is removed, and they’ve added coherency, and yet people still run away to chase kills. They do this because they find killing things more fun/optimal than staying together, despite multiple things that tell them they should be. Players who improve realize that sticking together is more important than chasing kills, and do so.

So I think blaming a scoreboard for this, or claiming it contributes to this, is a false equivalence, because In VT2 there’s basically no one doing this on the hard difficulties, even though there is a scoreboard. In both games, players who are not as good at the game do it, and as they improve, stop doing it. It’s a skill thing. /insertskillissuememehere

Adding a scoreboard helps people improve because they can objectively evaluate their performance and learn exactly where they can improve on. The scoreboard is a big reason why I improved in VT2 - I’d have games where I thought I did great, then turns out I did not. So they were teaching moments and I got better. I’d challenge myself, such as to take less than 200 damage, or something like that, which improved replayability and also helped me improve. I think taking that away because of the potential of some very mild toxicity that usually fixes itself eventually is just not the play. And most people agree - every time there’s a poll on this issue, it’s overwhelmingly “bring it back”.

[Keln]

My only issue with scoreboards is that they do not reflect other playstyles, such as “amount of time enemies were staggered”, “damage prevented through blocking”, etc
Things that let you know if you are doing more of a utility job, how well you’ve done

Could add one “number of ranged enemies that had to engage you in melee” if you are playing a disruptor playstyle

[RasMoti]

@NewType

the tangible upsides far outweigh the theoritical downsides

I see it vice versa.
The info to min max is outweighed by the elitistic to toxic behaviour it supports.

[derpherp]

@Axehilt

A lack of scoreboard also encourages toxicity, because players who are being carried keep thinking they’re doing fine and everyone else is screwing things up.

I think they should add the scoreboard in, but saying it not being there encourages “toxicity” is just a bad take. Not everything in the world you dislike needs to labelled “toxic” lol.

@Schuetzenhaus

But in DT the scoreboard is removed, and they’ve added coherency, and yet people still run away to chase kills. They do this because they find killing things more fun/optimal than staying together, despite multiple things that tell them they should be.

You find it bad now, imagine how bad it would be without coherency. That’s what is preventing kill chasing from being much more common.

[jesper]

@MeatShield01

It doesn’t matter if you agree with the reason it was removed or not. It’s still the reason the score board was removed, not someone being rude about the score.

Do you have an official statement to back this up? All I’ve heard is fear of toxicity, as if a score board would help either way.

Now we don’t have circle chasers, but the game incentives bad play. Kill 1000 scabs in melee regardless of wether that is best for the current situation or not. This is far more damaging than any circle ever was.

[ComradeHX]

Prove it.