RNG is still EXTREMELY BAD

[enEEEewon]

@Mayson

Damn, you must really hate RPGs.

lol, no. Not sure what you’re even trying to say honestly. Have played WoW (pre-Mists), Kotor and others.

[brosgw]

I am not the biggest looter shooter fan, but I put even a couple thousand hours into Warframe, and I even found this a more annoying grind. I even tried Path of exile (made by GRINDing gears).

I have noticed pretty much all people who don’t like grind don’t like darktide crafting system. Some looter/shooter fans or fans of grind also don’t like darktides crafting system. Some do.

Most casual players don’t like darktides crafting system for the hours it takes to unlock some content and combinations (especially blessings that only have a tier 4 version like power cycler).

I feel like they really are shooting themselves in the foot, and the easiest solution to me would be to pay a bunch of crafting resources to swap the lock one from blessing/perk to another.

[Mayson]

@Rainman

Haven’t played wonderland, only BL3, and bl3 is a mixed bag. The good thing about it is that you can direct your attention to a particular thing to farm for a particular drop that doesn’t have absolutely horrible drop rates. The bad thing of course is the tedium, and that a lot of the weapons are pointless or unnecessary, especially considering your action skills tend to outscale you (poorly competing gameplay mechanics). I’d say BL3’s item system is better, but not by a lot. No empty lootables there either.

Also, calling darktide’s system “very directed” is a complete inverse to what it actually is. The only direction you have, as of the last patch, is choosing your base weapon, and even then it’s absolutely random in terms of the stats you get. It’s like paying to get extra lines for combos in a slot machine; the psychology of it makes you become more invested even though you aren’t really changing the fact that it’s still rng. Being able to change half of your perks and blessings is also just odds manipulation, not actual control. The reason bl3 is only slightly better in this regard is because the odds aren’t multi-stacked against you (for some weapons). You have one thing to farm, and if it drops, you get it, unless of course you’re going for specific stats on a class mod or something, then it’s barely different and about as awful.

This is what I mean. To me it really sounds like you just don’t enjoy this part of a game’s gameplay cycle. I mean, to me it sounds like you’d be more pleased with a system like that in CS:GO or other shooters, where most of the gear is available and you pick and choose according to your playstyle.
All good, but that’s where you’d get lessen RPG elements / the looting part of the game.

And it’s more than odds manipulation. Yeah the rerolling perks thing is kinda iffy where it lets you reroll until you finally get what you want. Blessings you can now exchange 1 to 1, though.
So you can control technically speaking for more than 50% of the item now.
You decide which weapon you use to upgrade.
You can directly replace 1 out of 2 blessings.
You can indirectly replace 1 out of 2 perks.

@Rainman

And stop bringing up the ‘perfect roll’ bs. We just want to have control and be able to try stuff out. It’s about the experience that we’re being denied for no good reason.

That’s literally what it is, though. On all of my 4 characters now, the moment I leveled up and went to the shop I got what I needed.
Okay, in two instances I was ‘forced’ to play two or three more missions until I got an acceptable result. But even then. On my Ogryn, I wanted a Power Maul. I rolled about 7 times before I had one with 350 points and a stat allocation that is acceptable (around 70~ on all stats and 50 in defenses).
I was immediately able to upgrade it to purple, because I had previously played those two Damnation runs and had about 1200 Plasteel and 700 Diamantine.
Sorry, but I really really fail to see the issue here. The only way I could see myself being agitated over this was if I was forcing myself to shoot for something like a 370+ weapon, which yes you do get more rarely. Granted on that one.

@Rainman

It would also be better to compare to something like god of war than to borderlands. We need a different system, not tweaks to the current one.

Not going to happen. There is no way they will redo the entire crafting system yet again. At most you can expect tweaks. That said, if they’d just raise the minimum bar on what can roll in brunts armory, that’d be a big difference. With a range of ~280 to 380 you have way worse odds of getting a good roll than, say an item range of ~330 to 380.

@brosgw

I disagree. The big difference here is in trying different builds. Vermintide 2 and darktide had a very different approach and player base, and what has made a lot of people mad is the approach. Borderlands, it didn’t really matter, you could use a lot of different guns and we’re kinda forced to switch because as the game went on the levels went up on enemies and loot and your old gun became obsolete.

Sadly have to disagree here. If you’re honest with yourself you know that endgame there was exactly 2 viable ways to build your weapon in Vermintide 2 at most.
You could either go for breakpoints with Power Scaling or you’d go maximum critfishing. That was it. Not much room to experiment either. You had one to two meta options for weapons and that’s where most of the fun ended. Yeah you could run an off-meta oddball build, but let’s be honest. You’d feel a big drop in usefulness to your team and clutching would become super hard.
I hardly ever saw players running anything but the 20% Attack Speed on Critical Hits trait and that was because all of the others were massively inferior.

@brosgw

If you’re level 30 and you have a 371 bolter and power sword with some ok tier 2 blessings let’s say, and you are only looking for those two weapons, you have a pretty shitty grind ahead of you. Especially if you’re looking for specific perks and blessings, the odds are really low to get something that’s got better modifiers and higher perk and blessing tiers with the combination you want.

There we go, Rainman. Brosgw just proved my point.
You have two items with 371 base rating and ok traits. You still seek to upgrade. That is perfectionism.
Of course your grind will take longer. Play any RPG, any MMO, any looter shooter. When you are in endgame gear and the jumps in power from upgrades get smaller because you are already close to the ceiling (in this instance 380 base gear and T4 traits and perks), it’s normal to take longer for a singular item.

I really think this is okay and to be expected.

[Philthie]

Worst part is 10 million dockets, Plasteel and one year later when you actually get the weapon you want crafted they will bring out 400 base rolls and tier 5 perks so you have to start again!

[enEEEewon]

@Philthie

Worst part is 10 million dockets, Plasteel and one year later when you actually get the weapon you want crafted they will bring out 400 base rolls and tier 5 perks so you have to start again!

This is where Destiny lost a significant portion of D1 players, regardless of any further success they have found.

People like me said, "So you want me to grind for all the same guns that I just ground for 2 years to obtain… again (And probably again after that?)?

“Oh oohhh hoho Okay okay okayokayokaywhatever bro.”

/leaves

[brosgw]

Not at all:

https://www.ranalds.gift/builds

You can build lots of weapons differently. Do you want something to handle Chaos warriors? What about hordes? Or maulers where only their head is amored? I don’t know how many hours you have in Vermintide 2 but I got 2000 hours and will probably keep playing. And with 15 classes even if I run specific builds mainly with certain feats and weapons, as well as shared resources, it’s still a lot to experiment with. Then balance patches make me want to reroll my weapons.

Patch #4 - Blessings of the Omnissiah

Yep. It’s the bulls horn issue. You either take horn 1, and “perfect” weapons don’t matter nor shouldn’t be chased, in which case fat shark should just increase their drop rates, because there’s literally 0 reason to make them difficult to obtain. Or you take horn 2, and they do matter and people have every reason to be mad about the time needed to get them, due to mechanical advantages. At worst they have psychological purposes, and we should not be supporting predatory practices to “retain” …

I will direct you here to this conversation. It’s disingenuous to say people won’t chase it. If I am not hitting important break points (someone brings in the example of an autogun doing 3 bursts instead of 2 which would be solved by the blessing being a tier higher) that people will still chase it, reasonably so.

In the example I gave, if I ONLY played Veteran, and I ONLY liked bolter and power sword, do you think the average player would really just NEVER look at crafting again? With tier 2 blessings and perks and a 371 bolter? If you do, then what does it matter if the devs reduce the RNG to make it easier for people to actually accomplish it in a reasonable time? If you WANT there to be grind then you are taking the second “horn” and agreeing there’s at least a psychological mechanic designed into it so as to encourage people TO chase it! Not to mention WANTING to hit break points or wanting power cycler which only rolls as a tier 4. And if I want that plus power cycler… I am going to have a rough time.

So what is a REASONABLE amount of time to hunt for a SINGLE perfect weapon? How many hours should it take?

[Rainman]

You make it sound like my opinion is somehow siloed in the vast ocean of the same opinion. The player count dropped quickly from over 100k to 4k people in two months, and the grand majority of those who have spoken out in some form have said the same thing. They hate the crafting system, not because they want good gear right away, but because it’s an unnecessary slog that disrespects people’s time. It’s just plain unfun and unengaging, and the grand majority of people who have played the game have agreed on it. I’m not alone in this, by a LARGE margin. And I’m not just speaking for myself when I’m saying this, but fatshark will learn eventually that to support their business model, they’re going to have to cater to the people who want their time respected.

[anon38135248]

And I am OK with the grind. But the grind is not a substitute for the endgame in games like VTs, where the grind has been there to get me to the point where I don’t think about getting the items, but rather aboit playing. Well, in a way DT brought me to the endgame in ten times as few hours as VT2 because I stopped caring after 50 h max.

[Morbidmind]

Hogwarts legacy has been more fun then my 800 hours of Darktide, Fatshark your attempt to make your game into a job was miserable.