He says, having had his responses pared down further and further in response to me before finally just trying to pick another target who he hopes might be an easier one.
Also thinking Fatshark has any control over Nexusmods is lol.
Can we stop moving the goal posts all over the field to try and be right and actually just be capable of acknowledging issues without trying to quantify which is the worst one?
Good lord. Two things can be true. Shockingly.
We know you can’t answer this simple question. However, this is an important question regarding the current stance about mods.
So no, we cannot stop, cause if you cannot prove that, there is not mod (actually available on Nexus) against the current policy. And even if you keep repeating there are, if you can’t prove it, it won’t change this simple fact.
Prove that they have absolutely no control. Every time a problematic mod was reported, it was dropped from Nexus.
And Nexus have already stated that they allow only mods that are compliant with the mod policy of a game.
From File Submission Guidelines - Nexus Mods Site Help
This means that any mod uploaded to Nexus Mods should comply with the modding policies and terms of service set forth by the game’s developers or publishers.
Guess what will happen if a developer decides and tells Nexus support that one mod does not comply with the stated policy? do you think Nexus will argue with them like you do?
No. We’re not going in this circle again dude.
The modding guidelines are incredibly vague and unhelpful, as we’ve said.
Nexusmods has to overall adhere to agreements, yes. If a mod is written and not using Fatshark’s property, (and no, being written to run in a game is not the same as being their property, unless it directly uses their code) then they have no obligation to listen if Fatshark were to go and ask them to take it down.
Do you seriously think Fatshark actually monitors every new mod uploaded to the Nexus? And even in that case, Nexusmods again is ultimately under no obligation. The license and agreements things refers to games such as Bethesda’s, wherein using their SDK means the mods are implicitly ‘their’ property. If you’re going to cite things like that, you should probably understand what they’re referencing.
Without wanting to stir, this stance just seems to be a common tactic to shut down discourse on mods, presumably because people fear that mods might get a closer look from FS and they fear that might introduce restrictions.
People are discussing here and arguing their points. I wouldn’t call this discourse ‘toxic’ at all.
We can’t just shut down discussions on mods. They’re extremely divisive, which makes it very unfair to squash debate as that then sides entirely with pro-mod stances.
And most people on here who are wary of mods don’t seem to want them all banned but just want restrictions or options for mitigations on gameplay one that comes in contact with other players. I don’t think anyone wants to blanket-ban mods.
As far as I’m aware, @Murderer uses mods himself but is being critical of mods that can affect balance etc (though please correct me if I’m wrong there, Murderer).
Let’s stop requesting discourse to be shut down under the pretense of toxicity. It’s not very fair.
Gonna be honest, that’s particularly ironic as he agrees with the dude who showed up exclusively to go on personal attacks and who caused this entire derailing into toxicity.
@Ralendil doesn’t seem like the type to be toxic for the sake of toxicity, so I’d think he’d know better, but agreeing with someone just because they agree with your general premise is not a good look dude.
It’s really ironic that you have now resorted to the exact kind of responses you were complaining about earlier, actually hypocritical legend. You have not added a single thing to support your side in the last multiple posts you’ve made, yet and all you’ve been doing is saying passive aggressive lines/insults lol.
We’ve literally made multiple counter points and reasons to why your opinion on the matter is illogical and just downright wrong in most cases, yet you have absolutely nothing to say to defend your stance. I’m guessing because you really don’t have a good point to stand on.
The best way to proceed is to stop with the “he said, she said” stuff and trying to prove others wrong and instead provide your concerns and then some suggestions to help solve the issue.
It can get heated but this is why it’s best to take a very clinical approach to the subject.
lol
read the discussion. This is not a circle if you cannot answer a simple question and be able to prove that something is against the current rules.
This is not me that refuses to answer this simple question.
Let’s add that I affirm that mods have a lot less impact than unbalanced features.
Bad faith… reread their stance on Nexus.
I agree that several guys here don’t understand, or don’t want to understand, the current policy.
That’s why I want so badly that Fatshark ends this.
Personnally, even with the language barrier, these rules are incredibly clear especially when you read the examples that speak by themselves.
I defy you to prove that spidey sense is the same of a god mode cheat or that it is similar than a speed hack.
They are. They are part of modding discord where new published mods are announced. They also check this forum and every time a problematic mod is published there is a thread made on this forum. So they CANNOT miss a problematic mod.
I return you the question. Do you think they CAN miss that several mods made several users complaining?
It becomes to be toxic when it spreads everywhere in any discussion of this forum.
Several users argue that the rules are not applied / not clear enough. So what do we do? we continue to discuss like that 4 years and Fatshark ignores it? And then the forum become little by little a toxic environment?
Or don’t you think that a clarification is needed for players that don’t want to understand the mod policy?
I don’t see where is the problem at seeing a clarification.
They are actually pretty clear and straight forward to anyone who can read and has played the game at least once,
They literally state what they would consider an illegal mod and if you look at every single mod you’ve mentioned, not a single one of them fall under any of those categories
yes, yes they do they literally have people hired to do this kind of stuff lol. Every reddit post, fourm post, is all read and looked it, every mod is looked at, you really are truly ignorant about this and it shows. And yes, they absolutely have the right to contact nexus and have them remove any mod they want that they would deem breaking guidelines and nexus would remove it 100% because they do not want to go toe to toe with a huge company that can easily beat them in any sort of legal matter.
You cannot simultaneously expect me to point to a very specific thing while also admitting their mod policy is vague to the point of uselessness. It does not work both ways.
To me mods like the Special Tracker cross the line. Spideysenses definitely toes it and crosses it depending on settings.
Nobody has said this. Examples of things does not mean it’s the only things.
Horse crap. Reread what I said. That isn’t “bad faith”, what? I’m trying to actually get this conversation out of this tired rut that you’re all stuck in. Even this post you’re just saying the same stuff that’s been said, again.
Yes. Or at bare minimum, it’s to the point that even developers within the company very likely can have different stances on what constitutes too much in terms of a cheat or not.
See: How long it took some basic mods in VT2 to become official/sanctioned.
It becomes toxic when you vindicate people who came in and regressed the conversation heavily without adding to it.
Lol.
This thread is literally about mods. If you try to shut down discourse here then where are people allowed to discuss their worries or defences regarding mods?
The problem is that mods do affect other people indirectly, not unlike secondhand smoke (but obviously that analogy is much more serious 
).
Just because it can’t be quantified with precise data, it doesn’t mean it’s invalid. It probably could be analysed properly but that would require some serious work from FS so not going to happen, in the meantime we have to make assumptions based on mod properties and possible effects when mixed into the game soup.
Let’s stop with the “it’s a PVE game so why does it matter” and other shutdown attempts though. As it could just as easily be said “it’s just a PVE game, why do you need mods?”. This argument assumes a blanket pro/against stance which is not the case anywhere I read it on the forums.
No one wants to ban the UI hub QOL mods etc.
My suggestion is still to have a toggle so that we can avoid playing with modded users if desired.
Or, failing that, perhaps mod users have an icon next to their name that shows they are a modder. No harm to anyone but at least people can avoid them if they desire. If mods are totally fine then no harm in wearing a badge to show yours are active.
My personal number 1 stance is that anyone using mods should disable them and play the vanilla game for a good chunk IF planning on making statements about difficulty or balancing. That’s all I want. I just don’t want mods to cloud peoples judgements.
To you… hopefully you don’t decide what is compliant to the rules or not. Fatshark does.
And I tested special tracker… even less useful than spidey sense.
Here several quotes:
They have legal obligations… cause this is Fatshark game. And they stated that they require that the mods are compliant to the rules that a game developer has stated.
Repeating something does not make it true.
You fail at proving a simple fact… that several mods, that you think have a problem, are not compliant with the mod policy. And still you repeat they are.
Try to start by the beginning. Prove that. Prove that they have a DIRECT impact on your game.
After 362 posts, this has not been proved…
I did not… all my posts are linked to the direct topic. At xcontrary of gpkgpk, I don’t hijack threads. And even if I was doing it, he has no problem with it as he feels it is needed sometimes.
Yes, several want that.
The problem is also the definitions… they cannot give a clear definition and, that’s obvious, that what they point as cheatty is different between them.
I know for sure someone that wants that mods are entirely removed. And he is not alone (at least they are two, check the last poll I did).
I initially responded to your comment requesting FS intervene because things were “toxic”, which is what my reply was about.
I agree it shouldn’t come up in every thread unless it’s relevent, but this circles back to my major concern over mods and why I often ask someone if they have mods active if they’re complaining about something being too easy etc.
All I want is for game feedback and balancing to be made without mod usage, then modders can turn mods back on once they have got a good feel for the unmodded game regarding their gripe or feedback.
If someone is complaining about balance or difficulty then knowing if they have mods active is actually extremely important to the discussion as the outcome can affect every player if FS makes changes based on modded feedback.
That isn’t how it works. Unless the mod is using code from the game itself, the actual program and mod itself is the property of the person who wrote it, AKA the modder, barring using something such as Bethesda’s SDK to create it or otherwise agreeing to ownership. Considering the EULA…
If you really want to get into the nitty gritty, every mod is against the rules according to Fatshark’s EULA:
You agree not to do any of the following with respect to the Services, as determined by us, as applicable:
use, or provide ancillary offerings to anyone, that are not offered within the Services by us (or the functionality of the App Store), such as hosting, “leveling” services, mirroring our servers, matchmaking, emulation, communication redirects, mods, hacks, cheats, bots (or any other automated control), trainers and automation programs that interact with the Services in any way, tunneling, third party program add-ons, and any interference with online or network play;
But Fatshark has been inconsistent as crap as has been said, multiple times. You’re demanding an answer when Fatshark’s own policies directly contradict one another.
Dude.
Proof?
You keep repeating this, you don’t have a single example.
Again, you read what you want:
You agree not to do any of the following with respect to the Services, as determined by us, as applicable:
Do I have to quote again the thread about the mod policy?
Uh, that’s the first time I’ve directly said that in reference to the EULA contradicting their separate ‘mod policy’ thing. The mod ‘policy’ came about because of them not being able to enforce people using mods regardless of their EULA. It was a covering their own butts back pedal.
See: Them having to work around mods that will return such as the auto reconnect to avoid downs, people macroing/modding auto quell, etc. They released Pandora’s box and can’t put it back at this point.
I had a feeling you were going to latch onto that. I didn’t read what I want, that’s just a useless addendum in conjunction with the incredibly vague mod ‘policy.’
You’ve openly admitted the mod policy is vague and useless. So mods are simultaneously only allowed under these unclear, vague conditions, but also not allowed, but also subject to whatever the Fatshark employee of choice feels like because there’s zero consistency.
None of what I’m saying is unaware of any of this. I’m just pointing out that your constant retreats to saying the same things (See: “Dude.” I’m still astounded you said that with no trace of irony whatsoever) like they have some sort of ironclad standing on anything. They don’t. You cannot keep trying to shut people down by going “But actually there’s a mod policy” when the mod policy amounts to “Whatever the hell we feel like but also mods aren’t allowed in the first place but also we kinda sorta okay them because you’re already making them anyway.”
I openly said that several seem to not understanding it while I understand it clearly.
I ask Fatshark to post a clarification cause the discussion will never end if they don’t do it.
Yes, cause obviously you (and others that have a problem with mods) can’t answer a simple question. I won’t quote it again but this is about the definition of what you (not you personally) call a cheat and how the mods are impacting DIRECTLY you.
I do not have an issue with mods overall. I use several QoL ones such as Archivum Messelina, a scoreboard (mostly to check who the ammo hog is, more than anything), penances improved, etc.
I do have an issue with mods that cross the line, as mentioned. Your personal opinion on them does not negate mine. You just don’t like my answer because you personally could not use the mods to meet your own arbitrary usefulness guidelines. (Which then rewinds back to you insisting on things like them needing to equate to god mode, which nobody has said) See also: This post. Saying that just because they’re on Nexus means they’re implicitly authorized is not true, as has been addressed multiple times as well.
You are repeatedly trying to shut others down and it’s actually kind of exhausting. I am not responding to you again after this until you get some new content. This is why I initially didn’t reply, but I tried to stick to my guns once I did, but frankly I just can’t be arsed and this topic is right back to running in circles while the toxicity rises. (Including from you, getting passive aggressive with stuff like “You can’t answer a simple question” is not helping your case) I want the game to be the best it can be, trying to shut down that criticism because you disagree is gross. The devs are big boys and girls, they can decide what they listen to. Just because we disagree on what the best version of it is does not make my opinion invalid, nor yours.
I do not…
But, let’s say it. You cannot answer the 2 simple questions about this topic.
So, in other words let’s summarize. You are against several mods (how many? what mods? - only you know that) and you just want to complain just to complain.
You are right. We are all loosing time here. And I can understand that you don’t want any post from users that do not agree with you and that you are trying to shut others down. Cause, in fact, I never asked you to stop posting, but, by the same time, you ask all that are not agree with you to stop posting.
I can understand that, as you have no argument except the “I believe they cross the line”, you prefer discussing with only users that agree with you.
I’ve never said the contrary. But that’s not me that is arguing that several mods are against the mod policy by crossing the lines. If you claim that, you have to prove it.
Cheats are ones that do things not humanly (or not sustainably) possible. Nobody can 100% accurately track every enemy on screen at all times, right down to knowing even when silent enemies are swinging at them.
This gets messy because the terms can easily be misconstrued (exactly like Fatshark’s vague rules) to say dumb crap like “Well nobody can 100% know their teammates’ exact health number at all times!” It’s part of why trying to put down exact definitions is a nightmare for users as you’re fishing for things to directly attack in some manner. I know how this goes.
I said this above. The more games are trivialized, the less fun I have with the game. Part of this is due to mods, part is due to game balance, part is due to the community. Just because you want to argue that the game balance is the larger issue (and I don’t disagree, gasp), does not negate the impact of mods.
Well, you succeeded at getting another reply from me, because that really rubbed me the wrong way when I literally discussed this with someone more open minded who admitted to seeing my point earlier.
I do not expect everyone to agree with me, kindly stow it with that garbage. Genuinely, that actually kinda angered me when I’m actively trying to move the discussion forward while you do nothing but hold it back.
Prove they’re acceptable without going “They exist on Nexus so they’re fine.”
Prove Fatshark okayed them.