Scoreboards and Finding a Compromise Solution

[Mezmorki]

Since day 1, there’s been a debate going on about whether Darktide should or shouldn’t have a scoreboard. I have an idea in mind for a compromise solution, which I’ll present below. But first, and for completeness sake, I wanted to reiterate the key arguments back and forth for context.

Reasons for/against a scoreboard

The rational for why there is no scoreboard in the game has hinged on the notion that:

1. Darktide is a cooperative game and thus individual scores don’t really matter. The team wins/loses together. Without seeing individual scores (even your own), no one’s individual performance is subject to scrutiny (even self-scrutiny).

2. Scoreboards promote “toxicity”, presumably, by giving people data points they can use to denigrate the performance of others/the team, brag about their own skills, complain/whine, and express other undesirable behaviors.

3. Scoreboards make public the stats and performance of others at a quantifiable level, which may make people uncomfortable (privacy concerns, etc.).

Regardless of how much value is placed on the above, there are also counterpoints to consider.

4. The degree of toxicity resulting from a scoreboard is grossly over inflated. The scoreboard mod is used by many people today, but reports of toxicity resulting from its use appears low (or even non-existent).

5. “Toxic people" are going to find ways to be toxic with or without a scoreboard. Granted, a scoreboard might make it easier to be toxic, but not having one doesn’t prevent toxic behavior either. To the latter point, tools for banning/muting/reporting toxic players should be improved regardless.

As for the reasons why people specifically WANT a scoreboard in the game:

6. People enjoy getting better at Darktide and continually improving their skills. A scoreboard, if the metrics are well-conceived, can provide data a player can use to assess their performance and make adjustments and improve their gameplay.

7. Scoreboards have been a part of this genre going all the way back to Left 4 Dead and part of the “gameplay loop” appeal is seeing how well you did relative to the team. Many players crave this level of feedback on their performance and it is a strong reason why they play. Seeing the scoreboard is a fun “reward” at the end of the mission.

The Current Scoreboard Mod

The current scoreboard mod is an opt-in way of getting a scoreboard, although the way it works currently may be fanning the flames of the scoreboard controversy. Specifically:

8. The scoreboard mod by default emphasizes composite “score” values that may overly encourage one to focus on their “score” (and thus “winning the scoreboard”) as opposed to emphasizing useful stats and metrics to assess your performance.

9. You see everyone else’s stats whether they want them exposed or not.

10. There are a lot of other more useful metrics that aren’t captured at present.

Proposed Solution: Player Stats Board

First, this is called a “stats board” to underscore the importance of individual statistics that are included and deemphasize any sort of composite score element. You’ll see the list of expanded stats below (inspired by Ovenproof’s scoreboard mod).

Second, this approach seeks to strike a balance between giving an individual player information about their own performance, but in a way that presents it relative to the team as a whole so they can have a basis of comparison between runs. A High Intensity Auric Damnation run will have vastly more enemies thrown at the players than a basic Malice mission, so having aggregated team stats gives you the absolute magnitude of each stat as a comparison metric to assess your own score.

Third, the “ranking” metric tells you how you did relative to the rest of the team, without having to present other player’s individual stats. You’ll see the team total metric, your metric, and your “place” (1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th) relative to the rest of the team on that metric.

The image below provides a mock-up of what I’ve been thinking could be a good compromise solution. It’s a stat board that retains detail for yourself to assess performance, provides team statistics to compare against, and gives you an indication of where you fell relative to the rest of the team without revealing anyone else’s scores.

Seems like a win-win approach to me?

EDIT - TECHNICAL NOTE
What is also nice about the “Team Total” approach is that it would keep tallying for the whole team. So even as players join the game late, drop out, are replaced by bots, etc. the team total continues to be calculated. As with the current mod, it would start tracking when you as the player joins, so your calculation of the team team is always aligned to your active time in the mission.

If there are still concerns with this approach, some additional measures could be put into effect to minimize opportunities for toxic behavior relative to the stat board. This could be some combination of the following:

• Can’t view the stat board during a mission (only see it on the end screen)
• Can only view the stat board when back on the Mourningstar, so you can’t chat to your team (positive or negative reactions) while actively viewing the scoreboard.
• Let player’s disable viewing their own scores, and you’d just get a nice team summary stat instead
• On the flip side, let players “opt-in” to sharing their own stats publicly if desired.

Conclusion

Overall, I feel this is a thoughtful approach to implementing a scoreboard that will avoid or mitigate potential sources of toxicity (the chief reason for not having a scoreboard), while still giving players meaningful and actionable information about their performance if they want it.

On a personal note, I’d much rather be arguing about what stats we want to capture rather than whether we should be reporting stats at all. Maybe this post will help move the needle in that direction.

Thoughts?

• If you’ve been outspoken AGAINST having a scoreboard, what do you think about this proposed solution?
• If you’ve been in FAVOR of a scoreboard, would this compromise give you the information and detail to fill the need?

[Index]

@Mezmorki

no one’s individual performance is subject to scrutiny

in my opinion, people repeadetly entering a setting above their paygrade need not only to be scrutinised but reminded of the reasons why others feel strongly about their underperformance.

this being a video game is in no way different from a soccer/basketball or any team thats focusing on success for that matter.

theres no “right” to be in the a list if your skill isnt up to snuff, everyone has to pull his weight lest he drags down the whole team/wastes their time and energy.

the notion seems to be “playing for fun” has to stretch into every available difficulty even at the cost of those finding their fun in extreme challenges.

@Mezmorki

Scoreboards promote “toxicity”

it promotes comparison, which nowadays in the " we are all so equal and noone should feel bad" age is deemed a bad thing.

“toxic” is something i dissolve bodies in, not someones moodswings.

i’m glad i grew up in the 80s with “proper” role models and steeling my resolve through countless failures.
when hitting iron in the gym i cracked ribs, tore shoulder tendons and puked or fainted more than once.
pain was a sign of growth and finally seing results and recognition from the meatheads was best feeling of reward you could imagine.

at every waking moment you get measured and tested, being behind a screen doesnt erase that fact.

and a coop game means three other people invest their energy, time and skill into a successfull performance.
its up to you to prove worthy of all that, not the other way around.
playing “just a game” isnt a carde blanche for slacking if other people are involved.

single player is for chucking a sixpack and laying back

@Mezmorki

which may make people uncomfortable

then people should pick a setting they perform comfortably in.
keep in mind comfort doesnt mean not demanding.
i feel very comfortable in auric maelstrom doing a hail marie last stand.
as i felt “comfortable” when my whole body hurt from an intense set at the gym.

comfort isnt absense of challenge.

@Mezmorki

but reports of toxicity resulting from its use appears low

so far i never engaged based on a score even if i despised the persons performance personally.
the match went through, done is done etc.

IF the proven underachiever gets mouthy first though, he gets put nose first into the HE produced and made the rest compensate for.

albeit happening rarely as you stated.

like in real life, people misbehave, they need a dental readjustment lest they learn nothing from “nice words”

@Mezmorki

continually improving their skills

thats not only the reason i play darktide, its the elemental essence of my drive in everything i enjoy as a passtime.
either to the utmost personal best or not at all.

ps:

forgot over my wall of text:
space marine 2 not only has a scoreboard, it rewards tiny amounts of extra xp as a recognition of extraordinary performance.

which is a positive aspect in my opinion cause no run ever failed because someone did MORE damage or MORE kills, taking pressure off the rest of the team.

IF it gets roudy as blocking shots actively (darktide lets shots pass through mates mind you) its aholes being aholes with or without numbers involved.

like if i had an urge to beat up people at random i dont need an “provocation” to start it

[Mezmorki]

@Index

in my opinion, people repeatedly entering a setting above their paygrade need not only to be scrutinized but reminded of the reasons why others feel strongly about their underperformance.

You said the quiet part out loud

But to this comment and the rest of your post, I think this is some part (maybe even a big part) of the undercurrent for why people don’t want a scoreboard. It’s a cultural / generational something for why people not only don’t see value in a scoreboard for them personally but don’t want anyone else to access it either (and specifically when it publicizes the performance of others).

So yes - I agree with much of what you said - but I ALSO think we’re not likely to win the argument by hammering these points or by telling people we think they are wrong.

I’m trying to shift the conversation to talk about solutions and finding a middle ground.

[Reguah]

After playing the game close to 2 years now I can’t say I care if we get one or not, I enjoy the game without, but I’m not against adding one either.

Adding a scoreboard wont make me want to play the game any more then I already do, new content will.

[Index]

@Mezmorki

You said the quiet part out loud

you should see the jaws always drop at work when among coworkers i’m the only one speaking his mind bluntly, not giving a damn about “sensitivity” ( i’m not insulting mind you, just giving honest opinion when asked “sensitive” questions)

straying a bit from topic, you ask me for one “role model” in terms of “do your thing” google don frye.
not in my best days would i have come even close to his prowess but damn that guy is an inspiration for “going on despite taking hits” (would get knocked out from the first, not gonna lie

@Mezmorki

we’re not likely to win the argument

thats the neat part, i dont argue, i got my values and dont stray from them one inch people seeing eye to eye are more than welcome to join, those not i dont intend to spend my precious time with (at a certain age and a few unpleasant visits to the “medicus” you value time differently)

@Mezmorki

they are wrong

they can be whatever they want, i dont tell them what to do, just not in my team when everyone else is giving his best to see success.

but yes as you said, its about finding a longterm solution and the mod itself is one in my opinion.

neither do i strut my numbers after a match, nor do i crave extra xp for certain top scores.

the fact that last month alone i could fully switch my favorite karsolas to the branx based on 30+ matches is testament to scoreboard is a great tool to improve myself, as much as the tape measure was squeeeeeezing for that one more biceps inch after a good pump

irony of the day:
speaking of all those “good numbers”, i finally have to do my income taxes tonight as a final-final deadline
DAMN GOVERNMENT SCOREBOARD
TAXES ARE TOXIC

[Ralendil]

@Mezmorki

As for the reasons why people specifically WANT a scoreboard in the game:

6. People enjoy getting better at Darktide and continually improving their skills. A scoreboard, if the metrics are well-conceived, can provide data a player can use to assess their performance and make adjustments and improve their gameplay.
7. Scoreboards have been a part of this genre going all the way back to Left 4 Dead and part of the “gameplay loop” appeal is seeing how well you did relative to the team. Many players crave this level of feedback on their performance and it is a strong reason why they play. Seeing the scoreboard is a fun “reward” at the end of the mission.

I don’t use scoreboard for this… but to see some sort of stats:

• what is efficient, what is not. As I know how many damages I can deal in one mission, I can evaluate new builds or weapons. After several missions, I know if the build has to be reworked, or if the weapon is just a waste of time
• to see also how teammates impact my gameplay. When you see that 80% of the time the psyker deals a lot more damages than others, it surely means something.

@Mezmorki

The scoreboard mod by default emphasizes composite “score” values that may overly encourage one to focus on their “score” (and thus “winning the scoreboard”) as opposed to emphasizing useful stats and metrics to assess your performance.

You can remove them…

@Mezmorki

Proposed Solution: Player Stats Board

The proposition is good. However, a lot of us use a scoreboard. And there is no real toxicity. If it was so toxic, we would have known by now.
So, they should just add a true scoreboard with useful stats…

[psyk]

The game needs it who cares if some people miss use it, you can leave and block people at any given point. i wanna know how i did i dont care about other people.
also game realllllly needs a built in Yes/No button imo thats more useful and fun than a scorebored rn

[Index]

@psyk

built in Yes/No button

as with the scoreboard being a mod right now “for the emperor” is a mod offering yes/no as a bindable command

[psyk]

first of all that mod is against terms of service not that i think they would ever do anything about it.
second of all many people(my self included can not use mods)

like i said before in the map selection thread I think the prevelance of mods is reducing feedback on many easily solvable issues mainly for me map selection, Y/N and scoreboard.

if those and MMT did not exist there would be enough feedback for fatshark to justify adding it to the game.

[Ralendil]

@psyk

first of all that mod is against terms of service not that i think they would ever do anything about it.

If the mod is against the term of services, it would have been removed from nexus…

[Index]

@psyk

enough feedback

i doubt it would ever get enough traction to result in another “crafting revamp” even if more people were vocal about, given fatsharks history.

so as long as we got something to make due, i take that over “nothing” any day of the week.

@psyk

that mod is against terms of service not that i think they would ever do anything about it.

unliken"cryonic rod" this one’s the usefull one and if the former has not been taken down by now, i cant see any relevant term being violated, lest they’d have taken action long ago ( see animation cancel mod)

[brosgw]

Pretty good write up.

Only thing is when I play with friends I do like to tell them how they did when they don’t have the mods, especially console players who can’t get it.

I still think a simple proposition is to give a break down, just after the message end screen so no one can receive harrassment.

[Rainman]

I don’t believe that the scoreboard inherently invites toxicity, and it is minimal, but I’ve seen my fair share of people treating it like gospel, both in game and here on the forums. The scoreboard as it is is extremely poor data with zero juxtaposition to any kind of control. Inferences people make on the performance of either themselves or others often just go “big number better” without taking any other situational or dynamic context into account. A better, but still yet not fantastic, approach would be to track very specific things, like how much extra damage or stagger a blessing is doing over the base amount to every armor type, and to compare that against a blessing swap over a series of several games (not just one big outlier; “bigger sample size”), while also taking into account the other weapons your teammates were using (teammate getting huge damage numbers from flaming hordes and causing yours to dip out in one particular game, but not over the course of several other games, for instance). Getting more granular with the data would be better, rather than just flat numbers. How much damage was done to you by regular mobs vs elites, melee vs ranged, etc.

[Ralendil]

@brosgw

I still think a simple proposition is to give a break down, just after the message end screen so no one can receive harrassment.

or you do like in HD2…

You loose, no possibility to type in chat. You win, you can.

Or you can be tyranic and you forbid any discussion at the end of the mission.

[brosgw]

I didn’t even know that.

But I think a solution like @Mezmorki provided is good for during the end screen.

But some historical data of the last 10 runs that actually show each individual’s stats would be good too.

[Pirx]

@Mezmorki

[…] I think this is some part (maybe even a big part) of the undercurrent for why people don’t want a scoreboard. It’s a cultural / generational something for why people not only don’t see value in a scoreboard for them personally but don’t want anyone else to access it either (and specifically when it publicizes the performance of others).

and that’s perhaps why we should try to “educate” these people a bit more to see comparison as something that motivates to perform instead of something they want to be hidden because they know to be worse.

seriously, if i play well and then see someone on the scoreboard having done twice my damage, then i check his play and try to improve. although raw damage numbers may include hordes which have little value, hence i focus on elites and specials, but you get the idea.

[Mezmorki]

@Pirx

seriously, if i play well and then see someone on the scoreboard having done twice my damage, then i check his play and try to improve. although raw damage numbers may include hordes which little value, hence i focus on elites and specials, but you get the idea.

Yes exactly. I see someone do really well, if I can look them up in the social menu and see their build I’ll try to

[Thermaal]

I wish all these noob ass horrible malice players disguised as auric players getting carried through hi shock missions had a scoreboard just so they could see how little damage their bubble shield smite psyker builds actually doing. Because there is no scoreboard they dont understand how little support theyre actually providing in a game. If you arent killing things in this game you arent supporting anything but you cant even remotely mention that or people tell you youre yapping too much, as opposed to acknowledging the problem on your team.

I dont understand why more people arent vocal about smite being so strong, and especially after the update, that it can full stop carry horrible players through missions while they kill maybe 3 dogs all game if theyre lucky. I am all for a personal scoreboard that only displays at the end of a run that only you can see. It wouldnt curb people smiting 97% of the mission because in their mind theyre playing support and even though they never pop up in the kill feed they dont see anything wrong with it. It would let them know how theyre doing like 5k damage all game though and im all for that. Id love to know how much im doing in a game cuz without it people dont really have any perspective data on how theyre doing. Were all observing whats going on in games like grabbing resources or revives but we cant see that reflected anywhere which is rather annoying as an xbox player.

[Frish]

@Thermaal

If you arent killing things in this game you arent supporting anything but you cant even remotely mention that or people tell you youre yapping too much, as opposed to acknowledging the problem on your team.

You’re yapping too much (sorry, I value CC/defense and couldn’t resist the gibe… no bad feelings m’kay?)

Damage isn’t everything, same with kills… had a lovely game last night with a Smyker who nailed most every dog pack from behind two Ogryns in a choke. They didn’t get the most kills, but their stagger score was through the roof and they were definitely an asset to the team. Please don’t spark a Smite debate… please don’t spark a Smite debate…

Anyways, it’s easy to get the most damage/kills if you’re a chaff-oriented build. The nice thing about diverse stat breakdowns is that you can see each player thriving in their specialty. My favourite metric is damage taken, I feel avoiding damage is one of the more important stats in this game. I do count stagger/CC highly, as well as disabler/elite kills. My scoreboard doesn’t track little shooties killed but I’d love to have someone on my team chasing a high score in that department!

So all this talk of kills and damage totals is a good indication of how not to implement a valuable scoreboard imo. On the otherhand I really liked Rainman’s suggestion:

@Rainman

Getting more granular with the data would be better, rather than just flat numbers. How much damage was done to you by regular mobs vs elites, melee vs ranged, etc.

This is incredibly valuable to improving play. Especially for players who are struggling to survive, who are arguably in most need of targeted feedback for their play. I’d add to that how many times you got disabled too. Accuracy maybe? Suppression?

I’d also love to see reliable toughness replenishment metrics, I may just be addicted to that sort of punishment lol. Personal metrics would help me determine my value as a bullet sponge on Ogryn, and team metrics would be awesome to see on Veteran who can boost AND replenish team toughness. By how much, I have no idea, so that would be great to have from a buildcraft POV.

Also want to add I’ve not seen an instance of scoreboard abuse directed towards me.

[psyk]

only client side mods are technically allowed it effects other players therefor it is not allowed simple as that. fatshark not enforcing bans on that mod is on them.