What a weird discussion. Must be exhausting going through life constantly doing mental gymnastics to justify your continuous hypocrisy.
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This cannot be true. Some games (even very similar ones) have absolutely no grind. Now go and tell all those people (including yours truly) that they are not addicted to the game that got dated like 10 years ago, but somehow still gets played by thousands of people all over the world. Actually, L4D2 at the moment has almost 4 times as many average players on Steam than VT2. So I’d rephrase your point number 1 to: lame game developers who cannot polish the one thing everyone is here for - the gameplay - employ to get some strange completionist personalities addicted to their game for some odd reason.
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If you guys don’t like the grind then you should probably find another game. Besides, if you played the first game then you knew what you were paying for so Idky you expected something different.
Also, Left 4 Dead 2 was boring af to me and I lasted about 2 hours in the game. There is literally nothing to work for or achieve. The gameplay was so mind numbing that you could have a lobotomy and still play the game.
It’s a game for casual players.
1.) It’s easy and boring to play
2.) Valve made the game. They are bigger and have more money for support and advertising.
For a lot of people complaining the game isn’t fun sure likes to play it a lot. Stop torturing yourselves and then making other people miserable.
“If you can quit, quit. If you can’t quit, stop complaining - this is what you chose.”
― Joe Konrath
Krueger-Dunning effect in action 
But still, everything you just wrote is beside the point - you said that every game has at least as much grind as VT2, and that statement is wrong. For once you might just own up to your mistake instead of trying to writhe your way out of it.
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Why do people resort to personal attacks when someone doesn’t agree with them?
I cannot have a discussion with someone who doesn’t know how to argue their point without making personal attacks.
You should probably take a gander at the Forum Rules and Guidelines again.
You might learn something. Good luck to you.
Ducking behind Holy Forum Guidelines doesn’t make you less wrong, mate. Also there is nothing personal about the K-D effect - it is actually expected behaviour, so sorry if you’re insecure enough to take it personally.
I suggest you check those guidelines yourself and stop highjacking this thread in order to make inconsequential remarks (that are factually wrong) and then trying to troll people instead of actually admitting that you have misused the word ‘literally’ and just moving on. You gotta let go sometime, mate.
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Look, do you think the item grind is a good thing or not? You keep shifting between “Yes because it gives people something to work towards.” and “I just don’t care because it’s not so bad.”. You also liberally sprinkle a lot of “You guys are just entitled and weak for not being able to put up with it, unlike me because I used to play a lot harder games.” vibes in between, and that sort of thing is what’s rubbing people the wrong way. Can you honestly not see that?
None of us are whining nearly as much as you paint us to be. We all like the game a lot, all things considered. But we’re on a forum about the game here, giving feedback about certain aspects we think can be approved. Your “Yeah well if you don’t like it 100% then just don’t play the game, because letting your feedback be heard to help improve the game is useless.” kind of attitude is not exactly constructive, nor persuasive.
And your constant putting aside of people disliking the grind by implying they just can’t properly play the game (like you can) and are just entitled whiners, well that’s what causing everybody to argue with you. And it’s especially vexing to us because after doing all that implying and people talk back, you turn around and take a victim role, trying to hide behind the forum guidelines instead of actually replying to what people say.
Most people here have played the game long enough to have already “finished” with the grind, having all the items they’ll ever need. A system overhaul wouldn’t make much difference for us anymore. That’s true for me, and for some of the others in this thread as well (I know some of them in game). But whether or not that’s true for us personally, still doesn’t mean that the game wouldn’t be better (and better for other people) if things were differently. That’s why we’re talking about the system here. So stop relating only towards yourself. And stop shifting positions. If you like the item grind then just say so and state why, so your opinion is heard and we can just politely agree to disagree, or - if you decided that you don’t like the item grind but that it’s not that much of a problem because you’re such a hardcore gamer - you just stop replying here because that will never be constructive.
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It is not too hard. And you can play Cata with orange weapons if roll them few times…
I’m going to regret coming into this thread, I just know it.
I am one of the people @TmanDW is discussing when he says I’ve got everything I need and loot is moot.
BUT
There is a place for randomly generated loot - otherwise loot boxes would simply not be a successful business model that is raking in literally billions of dollars for games corporations globally.
When I didn’t have many reds the incentive to play in Legend and get the loot was there, and it was more of a driving force for playing in Legend than just the enjoyment of the gameplay - especially as this was the Bona Fide Bullsh1t of hyperstacked horde’s downing you instantly and so on. It didn’t feel like grind when I was quite happy to get my second red trinket or whatever.
HOWEVER
This got old fast. Getting yet another red charm with no red weapons for Kruber was annoying and it’s this annoyance that causes the resentment towards the grind rather than being annoyed with the actual concept of the randomised drops for red items.
IF there was some clever weighting to the drops, with some way of influencing what you were aiming for then people would feel like they were at least grinding in the right direction rather than grinding for dupes or weapons they don’t want. Carrying Grims and tomes and getting to the end for yet another red trinket while you’ve done 2k hours trying to get a specific weapon skin is the cause of much of the angst.
So, there needs to be much better bad luck protection and anti-dupe algorithms in place. Going for Vault after Vault after Vault getting greens/blues for weeks, while other players seem to be able to just fall on their feet and get cool skins is also some of the problem. A player must be able to influence the RNG more to feel rewarded for their time and actually AIM for what they want. This is some of the driving force behind asking for the Contracts Board or the shrine back. At least a player felt like they were grinding in the right direction rather than just grinding to get … another dupe charm or a chest full of orange weapons.
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Yeah, I guess the RNG part is the very worst thing about the grind, as you just explained as well as I ever could. I personally nver felt the item aquisition and levelling aspecs in this game were anything else than a nuisance instead of a driving force, but I guess I could see some merits of a system where you have to earn weapons. And I’d like that system a lot more (or rather dislike it a lot less) if RNG didn’t have anything to do with it. If an Athanor-like system were implemented and the red weapon illusions were sold in Lohner’s Emporium, you’d already have a system that is superior to the crafting system & old Q&C board in every way.
This whole conversation started because someone said that we all should be swimming in red dust the second we get in legend. That is a TERRIBLE business model when companies are looking to keep players engaged in their game when there is so much competition out there.
But, by all means, go and make a video game without any grind or incentive and let me know how many you sell and what your player retention rate is please.
Please stop taking everything I say out of context.
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I mean, that’s ironic. Isn’t this taking things entirely out of context? Who said we should be swimming in reds the moment you enter legend exactly?
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I will be muting this thread because it’s gone way off course.
Several people here seem to more interested in throwing insults and personal attacks instead of having a calm and meaningful discussion.
A little spicy in places here - just a nudge to keep it on-topic and civil all, pls!
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Just give 1 red dust per legend run, done. That’s the easiest solution. 5 runs to craft a red weapon, nice for the new people starting out and you’d still have to do a lot of runs to get everything you want. I don’t think anyone actually cares about the RNG aspect of opening loot boxes. That’s why people have been begging for the Weave crafting to be moved to the base game. It’s so much better… you get essence for completing games, use said essence to upgrade your weapons. Simple, effective, zero RNG.
I have all the red weapons I think, and tons of unopened vaults, I wouldn’t even care if they all got removed and switched to the weave crafting system. Forget reds… And with the weave crafting, let us change the colour of our weapons to what ever glow we want when they’re maxed out. Or make colour changing costs essence, or put it behind the cosmetic currency. Either way, that’s a million times better.
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Problem with just 1 red dust is that you’d quickly run out of the other crafting materials. Rerolling is expensive! Athanor is better in every aspect to the base game for weapon/gear customization. I wish that system was the standard.
But just because the grind is terrible is no reason for it to stay terrible. Games like No Man’s Sky and Rainbow Six Siege both had players come back and new ones arrive after fixing their problems. League of Legends is constantly iterating and making new content. If FS wants to do something it can. Players like fun games, this is one. But the grind can be overbearing.
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I kind-of agree with this, although I’d rather see loads more red-skins in the Emporium that players could aim for. I thought the best way of utilising red weapons was the Back to Ubersreik method > Unlock the weapon and then aim for the skin by completing some in-game thing. Your method might give players a mountain of red dust too.
In BtU the weapon, the skin and the top stats are therefore three different aspects of the weapon you could aim for should you wish. If you don’t or can’t kill the Lords at Legend to get the skin then maybe it should be available in the shop for shillings or dust. (you know I’ve got maybe 8k blue dust so now I’m considering snorting it to see if I get a speed buff).
My point being; much of the RNG was mitigated or removed by this method, there was some bragging rights to unlocking the weapons skins, and it used dust to get the red stats. Win/Win/Win. + Lots less reliance on RNG.
And @FrivolousWizard - I’m not disagreeing with you completely, but I’m trying to show that grind isn’t overbearing - grinding for an attempt at blind luck to get what you want is what’s overbearing and ultimately annoying and something of a deterrent to playing. An Old forumite called KrazyKruber used to come here and foam at the mouth about it daily.
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Man, most of the posts popping up here in the last 24 hours are awesome, love the thoughts being thrown around in this topic.
It’s also kinda depressing as hell though. Feel like I’ve seen almost this exact same thread pop up so many times. How old is this game now and we’re still having almost the exact same discussion about the loot/gear/crafting system.
It’s hard not to get demotivated and give up on this space, honestly, when the most regular, heated topics just get ignored and FS never act on them 98% of the time.
Most unfortunately I think there’s a lot of truth in this:
Don’t wanna be defeatist but it’s hard not to get depressed at how much of the game’s previous players have already left over this issue. I don’t know if the devs see the damage they’ve caused with these systems and their stunning inaction in fixing them. I pre-ordered V2 and was extremely excited for it. 0% chance of me doing the same for Darktide. Heck I dunno if I’ll buy it at all, gonna really come down to how its received in spaces like this one. Any hint of the V2 release kerfuffle though and I’m running for the hills and ignoring Darktide entirely.
Can’t list a single other game like V2. One that I’ve wanted to adore, and at many times have, but where the game itself feels like it’s trying its hardest to obscure its best features, waste your time, and generally frustrate you the way V2 does. And it’s so frustrating specifically because the game at its core is so exceptional. Sorry for the pretty off topic rant… This thread has reawoken a lot of my depression about the development history of this game.
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There are Diablo style elements in the game, even like it’s the first person combat of such. But that’s where the similarities diverge. The monster combat, the specials that force player reaction, the Lords and their gimmicks, the individual levels end events. And that’s just gameplay! Lore of Warhammer is deep and easy to be sucked into. The U5 bantering mid combat or back at the keep. This game is truly unique and addictive. It needs help in my opinion with player retention because the legend (or champion with power level 150-200) gameplay is where the fun really begins. Enemies start hitting harder than a wet noodle, specials actually have enough numbers to cause threats, monsters require good kiting and quick thinking.
I think plenty of players pick this up, get 10-20 hours in, and stop playing thinking “why would I want to replay the same levels just slightly harder”. They never unlock 30 talents and witness new ultimates, they never get to hide from a chaos patrol on legend, they never get the rush of pulling said patrol and coming out on top, they never try a different hero because it takes so long leveling one.
I don’t know where I’m going with all this, but I love this game and want it to keep getting better. Hyped for Engineer on PS4.
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I’m joining this a bit lately, admittedly, but: I have over 2000 hours in vermintide 2 alone, and the grind isn’t yet over for me. How can you begin to call that a “very minimal grind”?
What sort of games do you play, mate?
I mostly go for RPGs, and even the open world ones - not my favorites as I prefer a tighter story - are over in a 10th of the time
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