I think it kinda is, or at least the cause. Overturned survivability and damage output to a level where you don’t require team input does push you into a less team-orientated playstyle, which in Ogryn’s case leads to blocking teammates.
It can be worse if you play with “bad” or" not-that-good" players where you take your own survival as a priority so the team can do better, but by that, you are also blocking the teammates and/or doesn’t help them out if/when required making them perform even worse.
DT heavily tried to push the game into more team-orientated gameplay, but Ogryn kinda became the one-man army they wanted to avoid. Zealot is the same if you play it to some ridiculous level, but Ogryn’s entry/skill floor in this regard is much, much lower.
It’s all in good faith, mate. And I’m mostly just messing around.
I play the same hours and games, btw! We’ve probably bumped into each other at least once.
I agree with most of what you wrote down, except for the blocking being an issue, as I said before. Good perspective, though. I never made a conscious attempt not to block the mates, but then I rarely rush when I play (I never found any need to Shift + W and unload on anything, I supposed it’s fun to some) and usually find myself playing in the middle of the party.
So, final question, after the whole discussion - should there be friendly fire, if yes, how should it be done?
I don’t think there should be. Plenty of trolls on the internet who would love to see this as opportunity to troll and rip someone’s health for their own amusement.
However if they did have friendly fire. They would need enforcement:
Detection shows you’ve damaged team mate by X amount of Toughness and Health and triggers warning. 3 warnings then auto booted from mission.
Detection shows you’ve hit the same team mate X number of times within X number of secs/mins. Same warning process as above.
Maybe combination of both above.
Good luck for someone at Darktide to decide what the X is in order to be considered acceptable by the community. 50 damage, 70 damage, hit them 3 times in a min…Yea not so easy to decide the right value.
People will argue back and forth forever then talk about how it applies to explosive damage like grenades too or if someone hits a barrel by accident etc…goes on
It’s hard for me to decide if it would be good or bad. It would fundamentally change how the game works, and how we play it. It’s hard to gauge if it would be better or worse.
It could be implemented, doing primarily Toughness damage with a big downward modifier (10% or less).
It worked in VT2 because the damage wasn’t that much and tHP was nearly as good as actual hp, so apart from eating a Bounty Hunter ult a few stray shots weren’t that bad.
Personally, I’m not a fan, but don’t care that much either way. It would definitely make some troll happy tho, not like there aren’t barrels in the game already, but that’s a big negative.
Kill stuff faster. I aint’ got all day to watch your fat ass slap poxwalkers around.
@Flawless
Incidentally, here’s a slapped together FoV experiment diagram. It’s on a free hosting site, so I have no idea how long it’ll be there. The actors are movable, the line changes colour based on whether or not the target is obstructed, and the distance is all screwy because I didn’t bother to tune it.
Since some people had problems with my original graphic depiction, i drew some more graphics, hoping that the guys will understand the difference between what they thought i had originally drawn, and what i had actually drawn.
It should become quite clear that i did not draw the wrong picture and then tried to change the agenda.
click to unfold the graphics
As a reminder, this is the image that i originally posted before adding more information and changing the description for the grey area.
This is the context in which the original image was posted:
Although i thought the meaning of the image would be clear (showing the area from which the veteran player can not target the enemy due to the teammate standing in the way), there were misunderstandings. This is why i later changed the description of the grey area and added some additional information to the image in order to prevent further misunderstandings.
This is the updated image with which i later replaced the original image in my original post.
I am aware of the fact that the black arrows do not actually point at the nearest position for the veteran to be able to see and shoot at the target.
The nearest position (in case of the teammate being an ogryn) would involve the veteran moving up/down and slightly towards the left.
I purposely drew the arrows the way i did, because i think that this is how they are visually more easy to understand.
The following images represent the two things that i assume should cover what you thought i was trying to originally draw.
As you will notice, both these images do not show what was relevant in the context that the original image was posted in.
Also, both these images show quite a different area and different outlines of the area than the image that i posted.
This is what the veteran’s fov being blocked by the teammate would look like.
It does not show the difference between required movement from the side of the teammate vs the veteran in order to enable a direct los of the veteran to the enemy.
It does show the area that can not be seen by the veteran due to the teammate standing in the way.
This is what the enemy fov being blocked by the teammate would look like.
(This does not show from where the enemy can be targeted.)
As you see, both are triangular.
My original graphic is not biased at all. You (named) just did not understand it and assumed dishonesty on my part instead of a mistake on yours.
I’m not questioning the OPness (or otherwise) of the Ogryn, but the problem can manifest in any number of ways that you can’t really attribute it to class balance.
An Ogryn moving into melee. Regardless of their weapon, they’re most effective in melee IMO so if the fight lends itself to melee
A Zealot (or any other human-sized class) moving into melee. It’s a smaller obstruction, but an obstruction nonetheless. For me, I have a lot more fun in melee and lean towards it over ranged wherever possible
Shield Ogryn doing their thing. A well-intentioned act, trying to protect the team, but probably detrimental more often than not because of obstructing.
An Ogryn with a braced weapon (Stubbers being the main culprit, but not exclusively) walking through you
With the exception of reworking the shield, I don’t think Ogryn balance addresses any of those scenarios because they are essentially players playing the game with the tools provided.
@Flawless thanks for posting the original images; I can see why there was some confusion originally - “area blocked by teammate” doesn’t really express the intent all that well (in spite of the provided context) It helps to have both perspectives shown as well, so cheers for that - the former (LOS from enemy) is good for illustrating a priority target that cannot be shot by the player, and the latter (LOS from player) demonstrating the area which is untargetable by the player. The “Find a new target” commentary can sometimes miss out on the fact that it’s not just always a single enemy that is obstructed
I think you are partially correct, but I think Ogryn’s positioning would be instantly better if they would actually take damage from the 2 poxwalkers hitting the in the back for the whole wave while he is just shooting his Stubber.
I had my fair share of shield ogryns shoveling enemies into my character preventing me from even moving while they actually were trying to help. So it isn’t just a balance issue.
The best example that I can come up with to support my claim is that when Zealot crit DR was nerfed from 75% to 50% the infuriating Knife/Taxe Zealot running 2 rooms ahead dried up pretty quickly. It was clearly incredibly overtuned and nerfing it improved the experience for everyone, pushing Zealot into a better (and also more team-orientated) playstyle. It was the extremely high DR that allowed Zealot to play that way previously.
I personally rarely have issues with non-ogryns running into melee, it’s easy to shoot around them. I have more of a problem with Ogryns/Trauma/Vet shooting down chaff right in front of me playing with Zealot. At least it’s something that usually only bad players do, it’s an active decision on their part and they’ll learn.
lmfao I can’t believe how tolerant you’ve been explaining this blindingly obvious diagram to people. Some of the comments from your committed detractors have been breathtaking in the sheer scope of their idiocy.
And to think, all it would’ve taken to make the original image make complete sense to everyone was to change the label in the grey area to “vet can’t hit the target from here”.
I mostly run into trouble with Ogryns in those segments where the whole team needs to group up in an elevator or air lock door. Without fail, most of the team arrays themselves in a bit of a semi-circle around the door so that they get a nice crossfire setup and ready to unload upon any horde of mobs awaiting on the other side. The ogryn could easily stand as part of the circle or even shoot over his teammates’ shoulders. But NOPE. The ogryns always go “GET BEHEND ME SAH” and blaster themselves as close to the door as they can, completely blocking the team and usually cause some damage if there is a horde on the other side of the door. Only thing more useless is if the ogryn brought a shield.
I support this idea but not cause of Ogryn… cause launching nades should not be done in middle of your team, cause I hate that I don’t have to pay attention where I shoot with my gun…
but it won’t happen. mainly cause it would permit people to gank players, and I suspect that FS doesn’t want that.
Good ogryn will stay to the side when approaching enemies or take one of the many side corridors the maps have to give people shooting more LOS, or if holding a spot, watch the shooter’s back as horde and the like pour in from behind/side passages.
That said every vet (and psyker) that decides to shoot at ambient shooters that aren’t aware of the team yet deserves to be friendly fired more than anyone else in this game. Actively slows the game down for everyone and makes getting in more difficult for the zealot and ogryn.
Unless you are running a strong suppression weapon that can suppress the whole enemy shooter group as long as you keep shooting. That thing works wonders, it’s a shame Ogryns and Zealots rarely take advantage of it.
It helps to have both perspectives shown as well, so cheers for that - the former (LOS from enemy) is good for illustrating a priority target that cannot be shot by the player, and the latter (LOS from player) demonstrating the area which is untargetable by the player. The “Find a new target” commentary can sometimes miss out on the fact that it’s not just always a single enemy that is obstructed