There’s one wierd thing that’ve been on my mind for a while, that being how Veterans usually acts when there’s a hoard there and how do I (Ogrin) act.
So, there’s a hoard and a couple of shooters sprinkled around, and my first action is to kill shooters, which is kinda wrong move, and my Veteran’s first move is to go melee hoard to death, and the funniest thing is that we are doing our not supposed roles rather well usually.
And here I come to think why is it what I and we do?
Here’s what I think, it is because my number one threat, not counting specials, is shooters because they can see my giant ass miles away and considering my low toughness this is a big problem, and my Veteran not seeing any shooters or not caring because of huge toughness goes to his threat, who is any melee unit, and usually they do it in melee unless they do not have a power sword.
Now it happens rarely because I kinda learned that I really should focus on something that is easy for me to do, but sometimes when I see that my team doing more than well I pull out big guns to counter smaller ones.
Melee class shoots ranged and ranged classes kill hoard, does this switch in team roles happen to you?
I think some vets don’t pay attention to shooters because they don’t get hit by them, and they are not noticing gunshot sounds, and bright laser beams that go to ogryns head. So the only thing is left in their attention is horde.
As ogryn you really want to trust your vet to deal with shooters that pressuring you, and that can be difficult with randoms.
It’s more important to keep a huge horde in chokepoin, then let it flood the room, and go after shooters yourself.
Communication should fix that, or you just hope that randoms know what they are doing.
Maybe Im playing the game wrong but as a veteran I dont like sitting back looking for green eyes or yellow hoods to plink if the rest of the team is actively engaged in a swamp of boogers, especially in enclosed spaces where my sightlines dont cover more than a few meters around the team anyway.
I run the dagger with bleed which which while not being the sweeping harvester the powersword is can easily control a front to keep space for the other guys to do their thing before coming around to help me clean up, being a high mobility weapon it also allows me to quickly and cleanly disengage and pop an ult for any suprise groups of shooters or specialists that get thrown into the mix, or simply to catch up the the group after playing rear guard.
I remain acutely aware that my primary role is shooter/specialist popper so breaching into rooms or in the midst of a firefight I try very hard to clear galleries to take pressure off others, but even then sometimes the pressure is such that the quickest way to stop the shooting can be to dive in and stick them in the ribs to make them swap to melee, to either slowly bleed them out and move on, or to create the opening for a zealot or ogryn to close the distance and finish them.
maybe i should try to help people less in melee? But on the other hand I got chewed out yesterday by a guy for sitting on a box to pick specialists out of a horde instead of taking my fair share of the pressure
I usually just kill the hoard so they don’t have a choice to ignore shooters.
But yes, I understand that they just do not know about any shooters because they do not see them, and if they are not shooting them then it is not so urgent to deal with them.
So yes, it is important to kinda direct their attention to shooters, it can be done by making engaging with hoard not so appealing simply by removing them
No, you are doing everything right, ignoring the hoard is a bad idea, considering how quickly they can kill you. Some other little things to optimize your activity will come with time, so I think you are doing great thinking about what you should do to help others
Sure.
One problem I already talked about which always gets me a lot of hate is:
It’s not a good idea to give the most powerful melee weapon to a range specialist class.
It that regard, it’s an issue with balance.
The other problem is the shooters themselves, because, especially on the new map, there are often areas where there’s so many shooters and gunners scattered all over the place, that, as a melee class, you are encouraged to shoot first, and only engage in melee when the horde comes to you instead of charging into them and locking them into melee (because they are so scattered).
In general, I’d balance the game to make common shooters (and, to less extent - gunners) much less impactful, and make maulers and ragers a bigger danger.
Shooters and gunners (not snipers), I feel, only add annoyance to the game instead of real difficulty.
I actually kinda feel that way, but I do not know how to actually balance it out so it wouldn’t be easy as hell to run Damnation and bad for Veterans.
So I will leave it to others
There are lots of ways. Some of them are scattered around the forum, but they have to be tested by FS, and also FS would have to be even motivated to do any change.
Balance is hard in DT because of the underlying “crafting” system which not only silos your characters, but also silos you into using only a few weapons unless you are in the 1K+ hours crowd. We’ve seen that with the PS changes and it’s no wonder that no balance changes came with the latest patch.
They made a mess, and now don’t want to deal with it.
Besides what I already suggested, here are some ideas I am pulling out of thin air (should be tested):
Make ammo more restrictive and based on the team composition.
This is to fix the issue with vets and ogrins shooting at melee hordes all the time and not running out of ammo. If there are 3-4 veterans on the team, give more ammo. Otherwise, make players think about efficiency.
Nerf shooters and gunners while buffing melee enemies.
Rework +toughness and +toughness regen bonuses so that they have a bigger impact in protecting your toughness from common shooters.
On Damnation, they just obliterate your toughness regardless of your curio choices, so most melee classes just go with +health/stamina.
Spawn less shooters and/or make them less scattered.
Reverse the logic that makes Veterans immune to range. Instead, shooters should prioritize Vets which would, in turn, incentivize vets to shoot the shooters.
Instead, make them have a feat that makes them ignored (or deprioritized) by hounds and mutants.
As any class I just pick the most dangerous target to me and don’t worry about what my team mates are doing beyond keeping them un-disabled from specials. Trust the vet? HAH.
No. Damnation is already too easy. Stop trying to ruin shooters. They already nerfed them twice (detection radius, which feels horrible, and fire rate). Fighting shooters is not that hard. They have audio stings to warn you they are shooting, they have visual flashes to warn you they are shooting, cover (even for ogryn) is bountiful. Toughness regen is bountiful. Dodges are easy to do and effective. Slides and sprints work.
Please stop nerfing the enemy the game is too easy as it is.
Out of that whole post, your only conclusion is that I am calling for flat nerfs to the difficulty of the game? Wow. Please do more politics here. Of course that any nerf should be met with a balance change in other ways.
Audio queues and flashes don’t matter when there’s 5 of them per second while you are engaged in melee and with specialists you need to watch out for while you are dancing around the horde. They only help when there’s like 1 or 2 groups shooting at you and you are NOT locked in melee.
Cover doesn’t matter because I can only engage the shooters in melee where they are, not where I am. And often that means exposing yourself to 5 other shooter groups scattered around. So you are incentivized to do a boring shootout instead of doing what you are supposed to be doing with a melee-focused class. (this is what the topic is about btw)
Dodges have a limit, and timing them is impossible when locked in melee and audio queues are constant. They help with mitigation, and you are dodging in melee anyway, but it doesn’t solve the issue.
No offense, but I’d say this is a communication and skill issue.
The usual approach that I’ve seen work for myself and others, especially in premades, is if vets approach combat with the mentality of protecting the team from ranged/far threats, while zealots and ogryns focus on melee/near threats.
A competent vet will keep their ogryn and zealot from getting shot up, and a competent zealot/ogryn will keep grab-assing chaff off the psyker and the vet, and deal with specials that manage to survive closing the gap.
If nothing threatens to get close they contribute to ranged fire while keeping an eye out for anything trying to close in or the director spawning crap ontop of the team.
I’m not going to address the entire post point by point (for the sake of expedience). I did read the whole post however. Ogryns I play with in damnation, randoms and friends, consitently have no issues pushing shooter groups. Damnation is so easy you can pretty much run whatever you want, there really is no barrier to entry on equipment. Just a barrier to easymode.
This game is about hybrid combat. You have a gun. Use it. If you do not like the way the ranged combat works in this game then you will need to learn how to flank so you can surprise and engage shooter groups from unexpected directions. Not every problem in this game is meant to be addressed by facerushing or by melee. I am hardly the only person playing this game that finds damnation too easy, people are constantly asking for a harder difficulty or hi-int shock to be always on. This isn’t some ego thing for me or anyone else. This is about preserving the character and challenge of the game. If its too hard for you to deal with shooters then please enjoy Heresy where they are weaker but the spawn density is about the same.
When I play as Ogryn I tend to stay to the sides to stay out of Vet’s centre line of sight. If the Vet goes in melee then it means can go centre for horde control. Or if the vet is using left or right cover, stay on other side. Basically being conscious of what they’ll be shooting at.
But up to the Ogryn to decide whether they bull rush to far back gunners without getting stuck and downed there. Judgement call i.e. no crushers/reapers that may block you getting back to team. Or play it safe and only do it if team being suppressed too much and need a clutch.
In hordes sometimes I would bull rush reverse. i.e. fight past a horde forward, shifting to sideways away from my team then bull rush hordes backwards to team to stay in coherency with them.
I think this comes down to [in]experience. Newer players tend to be more tunnel-visioned, focusing only on what’s in front them (i.e., the horde), and not paying attention to ranged, elites, specials, or even their inventory or teammates!
You’ll probably notice that these kinds of players often pick up ammo crates and med packs, but prefer to take them back to the Mourningstar than deploy them as needed .
My solution (particularly if I’m PUGing it), is to have a plan to kill every heretic I meet, regardless of the class I’m playing. On my Ogryn, I run double toughness curios, giving me 21-22% per, or about 165 toughness total. I run different loadouts depending on group composition and what I’m doing (HI vs speed running etc.), but typically run the Mk I Bully Club and Rumbler.
The Mk I is slotted with T4 Confident Strike, which pairs nicely with the “Smash 'Em Good” feat (+20% toughness on single target heavy hit), especially since the first heavy swing is a strike-down headshot.
The Rumbler is slotted with a T4 Glory Hunter (+30% toughness on elite kill), so between the two, I tend not to take a lot of damage.
Every group is different, and skill level/situational awareness will vary greatly from player to player. This is the nature of PUG
If you find yourself playing with randoms a lot, I would manage your expectations and just do your best to support the less skilled players…they’ll figure it out…or not lol
Exactly. That’s the correct approach.
The issue is that the game doesn’t incentivize you to play like that, and, if you are chasing a scoreboard score, it even pushes you to do the opposite.
Again, you want to make this into a discussion about difficulty for some reason. (maybe trolling?). Meanwhile, neither the OP nor me said anything about any issue with difficulty.
In fact, I explicitly said in this thread:
Oh, I get it, if I don’t like it, must be because it is very difficult for me.
Please send me links where I can learn how to play this immeasurably complex game.
I was playing Quake 3 Arena and Battlefield competitively literally before you were born, and I know how to play FPS games, what is flanking, what is cover etc.
I am playing the highest difficulty this game has to offer - sometimes with sub lvl30 randoms.
This thread, however has absolutely zero to do with the difficulty, but please make another post where you will explain that the game is too easy for you, however off-topic it seems to be.
As I’ve said.
We get it. The game is too easy for you, champ.
Please make a thread about what can be done about that. I’ll contribute.
that’s cute.
If you eliminate/significantly reduce shooters and the challenge they bring to the game because you don’t like getting shot while hitting things with your metal stick you change both the character and the challenge of the game. You are complaining specifically that its just too hard to melee because you get shot. You don’t like it. Its annoying. It forces you into shooting games.
It doesn’t. The only reason you might think that this is true is because you haven’t adapted to the challenges (difficulty) of the game. By trying to change those challenges you are going to inevitably change the character and difficulty of a game mode that is already too easy. Ya dig?
No. I haven’t said that.
Incentivizes. Not forces.
I can finish the map even when I go Leeroy Jenkins because I have outs and the game is, in general, very forgiving.
No.
Never said that.
Here’s the quote:
No, never said that, either.
I was discussing the topic, which is about the range/melee dynamic in the team when facing range and melee enemies.
You are the one who insists on talking about difficulty by quoting just one line in a list I prefaced with:
That was a great opportunity for you to come in and say that the game is too easy for you.
Why you felt the need?
I don’t know.
Did someone tell you that you are bad at this video game and you are sensitive about it or what?
In any case, you (and my responses) are going off-topic and I’ll stop responding if it’s not specifically about the OP.
.