Ah yes… an other person incapable of understanding the most basic geometry and perspective…
I honestly expected that even a small child would understand how it works, but here are you guys, thinking that it is me who is stupid.
clearly your paint skills are not as OP as you think
and noone said you are stupid. you just dont admit you made wrong pic. correct the labels or draw different pic.
mistakes happen to everyone, just humble ppl correct them and give credit to ones who found them. others just go into eneless dispute who is smarter and start calling other stupid
I did not make a mistake. Everything is correctly labeled and i even explained the picture for you, but you still do not get it.
Although it is possible to misunderstand what i meant.
Here is my last attempt at making you understand:
I changed the label on the grey area and added some text to hopefully make this drawing un-misunderstandable.
The black arrows show how far the veteran player has to move in order to reach a line of sight towards the enemy being blocked by a human sized vs an ogryn sized player.
„Standing in this area does not allow you to shoot at the enemy.“
The you is referring to the veteran player who can not shoot at the enemy from anywhere within the grey area.
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see thats a good attempt of collaboration, now if you change the labes so ppl can see clearky what you mean i will give you your flawless state back
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Edit: i changed the labels of the grey area and added some additional information in the attempt to make the image un-misunderstandable.
————-
Red guy is the enemy.
Blue guy is human/ogryn sized teammate.
Green guy is veteran player.
Grey area is the area that is blocked by the teammate (human or ogryn); the player is body blocking ranged attacks coming from that area, making any position within that area unusable by the veteran.
In first case, the veteran is happy because the area blocked by the teammate is small and the veteran can gain los by moving just a few steps.
In second case, the veteran cries because the are a blocked by the ogryn is massive and the veteran has to take a long journey upon him, in order to gain los.
Of course i could have labeled the area as “area made unusable by blocking teammate”, but in the context of the image and the two citations right above the image i was pretty sure that people would understand.
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the last sentence is what should go into the label on gray area. the area block by team mate is the area between enemy and ogryn, not like you labeled.
It was not about that. It was about showing the difference between ogryn and human sized players blocking your line of sight and how the required movement from the blocking teammate and the veteran can largely differ.
As should be clear within the context of the image being posted (the two citations that i provided in the same post):
Given that i provided this context, i am pretty surprised by the two other guys absolutely not understanding the depiction and even telling me that my depiction was biased or flat out wrong.
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The distance between the different actors plays an enormous role in how impactful the difference in size of the blocker teammate actually is.
Like, if we switch the positions of the veteran and the enemy, suddenly the distance the vet needs to travel to get a clear line of sight on the enemy is DRAMATICALLY shorter.
You can say “the ogryn is bigger, therefore they’re harder to see around”. Yes, that’s true, but that is far from the end of the story. Sightlines are such a huge part of controlling space in any shooter, you can’t just reduce it to a static scenario and call it a day.
Also, your diagram labeling is questionable, that’s why we questioned it. The grey part isn’t blocked by the ogryn. The vet can see that part just fine. The part that’s blocked by the ogryn is the part between the ogryn and the enemy.
Yes. But that is not the situation that was referred to in the citation, is it?
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The ogryn blocks all ranged fire towards the enemy, that is coming from the grey area.
Independent of the way i labeled it, it should be absolutely clear what was meant (especially in the context of the citation right above the image).
But ok. I will alter the image in order to be (hopefully) impossible to misunderstand.
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Well it isn’t. It’d make more sense without that label. The diagram, as is, looks like you’re showing how the ogryn blocks the fire from the enemy towards the veteran.
Also, I’m not really sure how it depicts anything regarding the blocker teammate moving out of the way. That is probably adding to the confusion here.
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thanks
To add to this, environmental obstacles also exist that may interfere with alternative lines of sight e.g. crates, pillars.
I think much of the discussion can be summarised as
- The closer the obstruction is to the player, the amount of FOV obstructed increases
- The further the obstruction is from the player, the amount of movement required by the player to get around the obstruction increases
- The larger the obstruction, the more impactful the above is
It’s something that’s fairly easily demonstrable from the Psykhanium - put a mark on an enemy (or pillar), and put another enemy between you and the mark. At various distances from the in-the-middle enemy, take note of (1) how much area around the mark is obstructed (there may be a few high priority targets grouped together), and (2) how far you need to move to get a clear line of fire on the mark.
Ultimately… we gotta be considerate of the rest of the team, but also work around the problem when it happens (because it will)
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When this thread first started, I ignored it, thinking it to be a trivial and obtuse rant. But now… Now we have Paint diagrams and nearly 100 replies… I have laughed. I have cried. I feel emotionally connected to this idiocy. So now I want in…
Let’s see, to get the memege out of the way: skill issue. Also, vet problems. Nothing of this requires a game change of any kind. An ogryn has managed a noteworthy LoS block while I play vet maybe twice in 250+ games on the class, of which most are T5+. In every other instance it was either warranted, I was greedy and wanted that scoreboard number or I sat there with FF on for 2 minutes, pew pewing shooters and once one or two were left, the pal simply walked into the room. Which is… what we want, no?
Now, seriously - friendly fire will do more harm than good in this specific example. The greef/player adaptability would be paltry. More to that point, grenades and explosive weapons would be funny.
So, some suggestions. Not in order of magnitude, just throwing stuff out there:
- When you have your shots lined up and your precious FF is up, but the pal stands in your way and you cannot in any way hit another headshot or continue the fire - stop. Don’t waste ammo. Don’t pew pew at the pal’s back to make a point. Look for another avenue of targets. Or reload, take a breath and move on. The pal will either know what they’re doing and you have nothing to worry about, or they won’t, in which case you’ll have targets again very soon.
- Find elevation. Barrels, railings etc. You get it. Vet is mobile, and that addictive Fire on Sight gameplay while running ahead of the team is the result of half the complaints. Two additional seconds of positioning often result in tens of seconds of pew pew unobstructed. (no, doesn’t work in corridors, I know I know…)
- Corridors. Bad. Also - good. You have grenades! Usually on 1 minute replenishment. Can’t shoot? Throw one! Or two. I swear, vets will have 4 grenades for 90% of a run, throwing them on poxwalker hordes just to make them scatter, or when they think they should revive someone. You can throw them at the start of any firefight, or… hear me out now, when your LoS is blocked.
- Shoot sharper. The class is called Sharpshooter. Not Stormtrooper. Pick your shots and stop rushing ahead to blamblam with your boltgun. Yes, it’s good. Yes, it gets a high score. It’s fun to own the killfeed. Yes. Now stop. Take a break. Your pal might be rushing ahead of you because you’re rushing for some reason. Then again, maybe not, in which case he might be one of those ogryns who does 500K dmg at 150+ offensive rating and owns the game. In that latter example - chill, get carried.
To end this appropriately - I personally find the idea of changing the game’s mechanics because of anecdotal issues and referring to these as “real problems” asinine. Maybe good for a laugh or two, and to spark a conversation. But fundamentally pointless.
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I’m sorry, I can’t contain myself… 
I have to go for another:
“Ranged team damage need in T5, ASAP!”
As an ogryn main, I’m tired of Vets and their silly replenishable grenades. Seriously, here I am managing a horde exceptionally well and then out of nowhere a vet throws a completely unnecessary grenade! Why?! It does nothing but scatter my otherwise perfectly aligned melee targets. We’re not even talking about mixed horde here, and the vet isn’t even in melee! Like, seriously, find some shooters to take down with Counterfire while I slap around the poxies.
This is a problem and needs to be addressed! So, I suggest team damage for ranged weapons. In this way, vets cannot drop grenades at their feet when about to be overwhelmed, and so would learn that throwing grenades in my feet while I’m doing my job sucks!
Less than 10% of vets use their infinite grenade spam to open up ambience or to stun ogryns. My personal feelings show they only spam nades on naked horde.
For me, the issue is so bad that I only play Plasma on Vet since it can shoot through ogryns. Personal experience might be personal, but getting Rambo ogryn every second mission I play does reduce my enjoyment of the game significantly.
How about no? How about not giving the easiest to play insanely tanky character the ability to hard carry HiD with minimal effort?
This wouldn’t actually be that bad if Ogryns I get every 2nd game wouldn’t just make their own fighting circle not giving 2 craps about what’s going on with squishies, but it’s like that.
Overtuned survivability, a bunch of insanely overtuned weapons…
I get that you are ogryn main and enjoy going solo protagonist mode, but as it stands Ogryn is both overtuned and negatively impact other player’s enjoyment. Both by ogryns who are skilled enough (which isn’t that high skill) that can go full rambo and bad Ogryns who just sit back and shoot their OP Stubber walking into people not even caring about getting attacked in the back by multiple poxies.
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Nish, pal, I love what you bring to the forums, but I simply cannot relate. Not even anecdotally. You mean to tell me that every other T5+ you enter, you get ogryn blocked or carried by a BB/Gorgo enthusiast? I’d like to find these lobbies, too, damn it!
Well, maybe if you come around the ogryn chat more, hang around and play some games with me or the other pals, you’d have a much deeper, and certainly less subjective perspective on the matter. Maybe for “Ogryn build is OP” part 2? I mean it, I’m not being facetious.
Now, to the major point of your reply (and I do appreciate you only quoted two sentences, I assume you agree on a basic level with the rest) - the ogryn fantasy in DT is solid, and it should allow for the player to have more headspace and mind the rest of the team. That’s the idea, at least. I think. Yeah, there are players who take that headspace and run off in the other direction, Rambo mode and all. These anti-pals are precisely as common as Rambo Zealots, Rambo Vets and Ramb… ehh, actually, never seen it on Psyker.
Considering how few players main oggy, you cannot be running into that many, I think. So, with this I posit that your observations originate with the less skilled ogryn enthusiasts, the newbie pals, who are having a good time. And that would suggest that: one, the skill cap for oggy is greater than you think, and two - game awareness and coop intent have nothing to do with what class you play.
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You know, there is one compelling argument for friendly fire…
Practicing your aim with the box 
But ye, I’d be of the opinion that the game doesn’t need a mechanical fix to the problem.
That’s not really the same problem though.
Friendly fire. That would definitely open up the game to trolling.
If you give someone the ability to sabotage someone, then someone will just do it because some people out there like to cause misery out of amusement. It is like that in every game.
Then they would have to design a mechanic for penalty like X amount of team damage, number of hits in X mins etc. Would just add complication to work out what would be acceptable friendly fire and what would be acceptable penalty, constantly tweaked over time.
You’ll get people asking why did you shoot me and end up explaining you were only trying to hit an enemy about to hit them as favour and misunderstanding. Lots of conflict and toxicity. They don’t even want a scoreboard because of toxicity (likely reason, but unsure), so this would be considered worse if friendly fire is enabled.
At the moment we can walk through eachother, we can even melee through eachother and hit an enemy otherside (team mates can’t block your melee). Might as well like us shoot through eachother
Best way to avoid trolling team mates in any game is to think of all the ways you can sabotage someone, then build mechanics to prevent it.
First of sorry if my first reply came out too hostile.
It’s either Gorgo that blocks you or Ripper/BB that goes solo. I get around 1.3-1.5 ogryns/game. As I said it could be variety, but the longest stake of no Ogryns was when I played Ogryn myself (was like 4-5 games or something).
Around 10% of the Ogryns I play with are great teammates and use a bit more varied loadout, I’ve seen them doing great with Pmaul, rumbler, GG, shovel… Both damage-wise and team efficiency-wise.
I play EU at late night or morning usually, HiD, HiD+ if possible. Preferring Grim runs etc.
Maybe after the post. I need to do a few more games with Ripper and try Ripper MK2.
I think with my “Ogryn is kinda broken” post it is an additional point that I can just pick up the Ogryn with not so much knowledge about it and do some insane damage and carry games with minimal effort.
I think most of the Vet players are sh*t, and you kinda can work around ogryn in some cases, but when ogryn doesn’t give a crap it’s extremely hard. I think you should keep a bit more open mind about this, I think “Ogryn blocking” can be a serious issue sometimes. I have to say “stepping on toes” so to say is not something only ogryns can do (Try picking TH into a good plasma player, or HS with Flamer on the team).
Vet is very much affected mainly by the “keep the ult up” gameplay, but from experience dragging several elites into me as a psyker that I didn’t see and wasn’t even tagged is also a problem. This is much worse in tight places where the ogryn goes forward and when the 10 elites appear he backs into the group (while the group can’t actually shoot them).
You getting angry about nades is all natural. I have the same experience with Rumbler, Trauma, etc. when playing Zealot or Vet throwing crap behind me and preventing toughness gain from kill.
Finding a good position for shooting sadly only really works if you are running camo or you are actively covered by teammates. Otherwise, safety or keeping up Unwavering takes priority.
BTW me arguing with you about the points doesn’t mean you are outright wrong I just think the “Ogryn block” is a valid and existing problem and it isn’t always easy or even possible to work around it. It’s also kinda bad if you are forced to work around someone.
I think that’s good, and I agree with it. I think Ogryn (skullbreaker) should be tanky team support.
In VT2 tanks were mostly held back from going solo by having subpar damage output and active reliance on the team for killing power otherwise, they got overwhelmed. Sadly this doesn’t work like this in DT allowing, or even pushing into the rambo playstyle.
I think it’s wrong to want both high-damage (“It feels wrong to just push enemies around”) and high survivability (“Ogryn big should be the tankiest”) at the same time. We are currently here, and while I’m generally sympathetic to the “push enemies around doesn’t feel good” I’ve a feeling that it’s highly over exaggerated. I’ll try out some of the other weapons ogryn has after I’m done with the clearly op ones.
I in no way want ogryn to be nerfed into an unplayable state just to clarify. There is a decision to be made about balance if the ogryn is to be the Tank/CC/Support class it is clearly meant to be design-wise or if is to be pushed into a damage dealing role (now it does both).
That’s me. Don’t do that. It’s super fun, but 2 mistakes and you are dead.