The point was that there is not a maximum number of melee swings in a run like there are with ranged weapons.
The argument that the game is hybrid is nonsense if one style is limited and the other is infinite. You simply do not need to use ranged if you don’t want to, and suggesting otherwise suggests a skill issue. There are almost NEVER situations which can’t be managed with melee and the class kits alone.
Nobody said there was, did you not read? If you choose to melee everything there is a cost eventually if you did it poorly. That cost is HP and the resources needed to re-fill it or the burden it may put on the team due to your poor decisions. Eating all the heals, dropping all the time, cowering because you’re about to drop etc. Oh, and you can’t swing if you’re down or hogtied last I checked.
P.S. You’re confusing HP (heath) with toughness so I see where the rest of the confusion is coming from. Oh I see you edited part of your nonsense now.
I feel like you’re not reading. You can play poorly with either melee or ranged and be a burden on the team. You can play well with either of them and, and only one of them runs out. Ergo, the ‘hybrid’ argument is nonsense.
There is no “pick your targets” with melee.
Oh please, you think I haven’t seen you editing your posts?
This, or the sometimes entirely blinkered idea that an individual playstyle doesn’t impact anyone else.
In case the point is going woosh with a vengeance, and especially since the gatekeeping card has been played, every interaction in a co-op game is gatekeeping in a sense, seeing as we all tend to react to how teammates are playing/behaving.
Personally, if i see someone with a mk5 magdumping into hordes i usually start conserving and going into hard target sniping mode, even when i went into a match thinking i was going to focus on say melee a bit that round if possible.
That means out of the box i just got gatekept if you will, because i generally do enter rounds with the hope of finishing the round, and since I’m 100% on board with pugs will be pugs, i try to adapt to that reality.
But arguing on good faith that “there’s plenty of ammo on a map for everyone to just 100% go ranged with no coordination or curtailment of anyone else’s idea of fun” is just complete nonsense.
Can be done in a vacuum is not mutually inclusive with should be done, or even is possible in most cases, the game obviously isn’t designed for that to be viable in an average group.
I don’t begrudge anyone going dakkagryn or columnus spam and grinning from ear to ear when just mowing down a sea of mobs, i really don’t, but after doing that you’d hope they’d then go “ok, that was half my ammo, and that’s not sustainable because there’s still 80% of the mission left to go and there’s 4 of us”.
Sure, if you’re running with 3 friends and they’re all ok with it, go nuts.
If there’s an ammo box on the ground and there’s a spare charge because the psyker is on staff and the rest are using little to no ammo, go nuts, that’s your chance.
But context is important though, and in a baseline group with no coordination of that kind where everyone thinks they’re the most suited to burning all the ammo (which is the same as “it’s perfectly viable for all of us to just magdump ad nauseum”) does anyone think that’s going to end particularly well?
And I’d argue, this is before we even get into reality vs perception when it comes to teamplay, “blessings aren’t that important to performance”, build vs skill, and all that other stuff it’s actually quite hard to gague via text-based opinions on the internet.
So close…so close.
I’m gonna assume you’re sleepy and your brain is shutting down because you’re all over the place and not making sense. Feel free to rephrase and elaborate, tomorrow.
Yeah, I added in an attempt to clarify for those who don’t read. I didn’t remove nonsense arguments like HP=TUF or any large sections.
P.S.
Gonna leave this out here…
This got posted just as i hit send on my previous wall of text but it’s kind of an important point.
You can be a burden on your own team with just melee, i get what you’re saying and i agree to some extent (you’re right about the not being a factor on the ammo economy by staying melee, or making the same choice in going staff psyker for instance) but the idea is a bit iffy when we all have a ranged slot, obviously put in there to be a part of a toolkit to handle certain situations.
Again, the argument “i can do it” isn’t the same as “therefore it’s obviously intended to be that way”.
I’d also say the average player of this game would struggle badly even on regular damnation if there was no ranged at all, in fact probably the vast majority even if we made everyone play stealth zealot/vet with daggers and all the survival traits possible.
(not saying that’s the only workable class/spec by the way, just an example)
Veteran is a ranged class. If you want to FEEL like your playing a Veteran you will probably be shooting most of the time. You’re an ex-guardsman for crying out loud. Guardsmen use lasrifles.
FIRST RANK, FIRE! SECOND RANK, FIRE!
and if Fatshark doesn’t like that, they can make rifle bayonets more common and viable.
If people are hating on that fact they can go back and play Vermintide because they really don’t understand Darktide and Warhammer.
its not the problem though,
Guns are more powerful than melee, guns are also safe so to balance them they need to have a resource that the management of actually matters.
that is not the situation , so you end up with a lot of poor play from “pure ranged” players because they will not swap to a melee weapon they will dance backwards and train the team in the side/rear.
the problem isnt shooting the shooting is great and all class’s should and do use ranged weapons a pure melee is a silly idea.
the problems are balance and bad play.
Your entire “rebuttal” there only proves you have no idea what I’m talking about. I suggest you take your own advice. Sleep on it and try again tomorrow.
Some of you guys don’t even have game installed it seems and complain about patchnotes in vacuum. Because nothing really changed.
I played with bolter, mg la. There was games with brauto, revolver, plasma vets in my team.
There was no case people don’t have ammo to shoot, in fact brauto and plasma vet are still braindead spam. The only difference ammo indicator for every player is orange now, not white.
Besides they increased amount of barrels (so you can blow up some hordes with 2 bullets) and chance to find a crate in yellow box it feels, atleast every run now is 2 med/2 ammo (or cause players are checking every yellow box now)
Surely you would notice this by playing the actual game, not forum.
I am a vet main and I don’t have the slightest clue how people are having ammo problems. I didn’t really run survivalist before the nerf very much (I found damage or movement speed to be better for me for most situations.) and the only time I really had much ammo problems in missions was when the game never gave much out so the problem was squad wide. Melee is fun and a very important part of veteran’s kit just as important as your gun of choice. To neglect it is a massive disservice to not only yourself but also your team.
It highly depends on the gun, namely a stat you can’t influence - The pick-up ammo value on each weapon. Some people choose more niche builds or guns that burn through ammo quicker while getting less for pick-ups. On those the changes are noticable.
Want to say that I have not yet played with the recent nerf, so my opinion is a shaky thing.
I recommend others to use melee for a couple of reasons, but I do not demand it:
Using melee makes you better understand and feel the game
Basicly advancing your skill
Because I (and others) want to shoot too
There is usually not enough ammo for the two or ever three of us
Preserving some amount of ammo for others helps to deal with specials
Shooting a lot consumes a lot of ammo, right?
So, generally people against the full on “gunplay only” playstyle because the game itself really doesn’t want us to do that.
And guys, I really want to shoot a whole lot when playing as Gunlugger Ogryn, please guys throw me some ammo, PLEASE
Even the small one will work, just give me a little more ammo…
I will not shoot everything away PLEASE I promise, guys…
All right, I’ve jumped to the cannon little to much, I admit that.
What I’ve ment, is not wasting 2/3 of ammo on literal trash in hordes. I’ve ment that, there is always ammo for shooting primary and secondary targets of specific weapon. It worked quite well before, when if I mainted a bit of trigger discipline, I could always shoot at intended targets. Now sometimes I must skip even primary targets, because of low ammo (gotta save some for dark hour). I was running with 12th lasgun, on auric, the weapon of ammo efficiency, and yet, I didn’t had enough ammo for all those light shooters, which are my primary targets.
Before the patch, only on specific weapons/situations I felt that I could just dump ammo into random hordes, not always, hence the number of 10/90 I’ve typed before.
Ah, before the patch, I could go through enitre round with picking up only one big pack and several more of small ones, that is if there was anyone else who needed ammo. My point is, that you didn’t need to hog all ammo to play ranged first. Now you almost always need that.
We all know here, that game designers in Fatshark can and have some strange or straightup bad ideas, khykhycraftingkhykhy, so it shouldn’t really be golden standard on how one does play, especially when playing on highest difficulty.
Yeah, staffs have lower DPS for infinite ammo.
But that wasn’t my point. My point was that, thanks to that infinite ammo, psyker can essentially go with this 10/90 in melee/ranged. And yet, no one says “we should limit psykers infinite ammo, so they are forced to use more melee”. Double standards, ain’t it?
I can’t answer you.
I’m not happy with the Talent Trees, we’re still missing Veteran guns, and I am very bored with the current state of the game.
I was enjoying my Bolter build. Exe stance, scavenger, Focus Target. Was a lot of fun, but it runs out of ammo all the time now (before I could kinda keep ammo stable, depending on density on Auric).
So now I’m back on my Kantrael 1a, bored. No new weapons, no new maps, no new talents or blessings. Just a heavy nerf and some buffs that did nothing for my class.
Thanks Fatshark, game feels fresher than a week old egg sandwich.
Do I want this or that? How should I know? We still don’t have Longlas or Lascarbines or Hellguns. Will ammo be enough for them?
Don’t know! Don’t care at this point either.
I’ll just say, purely from these discussions related to the Veteran since the recent update, I’m clearly NOT ALONE.
Kinda feels like maybe the nerfs should have been implemented with something to counter balance it, for the Veteran. Like a new blessing? Or some kind of built in passive as has been suggested (Vets gain a tiny bit more ammo from pickups maybe?)?
Nothing stopping you, just stop the screeching about running low on ammo because you decided to shoot every groaner on a map, and “omg why my gun doesnt have infinite ammo”.
We all ran few games since the patch, and ammo isn’t a problem. The point is moot unless you insist on sabotaging yourself and your team by spectacularly failing to manage your resources.
I see the argument of wasting ammo on trash come up a lot. It gives the impression that people think there shouldn’t be ranged weapons designed for clearing specifically chaff.
There’s melee weapons meant to cleave hordes, and ones meant to take out single targets. There should also be ranged weapons that do the same, high capacity low damage weapons that clear unarmored enemies with ease while more slowly chewing through those wearing flak and struggling with carapace. Off the top of my head I can think of the flamer, but it’ll run out of fuel pretty quick used that way. The recon lasguns maybe? Braced Auto will run dry pretty quick, autopistols as well. Shotguns have practically no ammo, psyker staffs probably pretty viable for this, and the ogryns stubbers and rippers work but are pretty ammo hunger.
My point is that there absolutely should be ranged weapons that prefer clearing the “trash” and should be specced out for it accordingly.
Also made me realize that the veteran doesn’t really have the ability to build quantity over quality in his ranged tree either. It’s totally focused on high damage to single targets.
Alright than, let’s just focus on your bolter build than. Why do you not find it as fun as before? Do you feel like you “have” to kill yourself for ammo to be viable? Do you think low ammo should never be a concern you have to deal with?
In the past, we have had the community ve very vocal about certain balance changes. Certain balance changes that I agree with and think, in concept, were neccassary. Looking at Power Sword and Flamer (their implementation of balance wasn’t great but imo they did need to be brought down a peg). Is this a similar situation? Was/is Scavenger a “crutch” that needed to be nerfed even if it makes people upset?
I think these are some important questions to ask. Especially considering how prevalent Scavenger has been, before and after the Vet Class reworks. I think 5 second cooldown might have been a bit much if they want to keep the Aura. But personally I would not be opposed if they reduced magical ammo generation entirely and added more ammo pickups mid mission.
The aura wasn’t nerfed to reduce the intended design. The issue with the aura was that since the introduction of auric and rebalancing enemy counts afterwards, the highest difficulty available to players now has about 3x the amount of elites and specials than damnation did when the game first released. Obviously this created an issue with the aura: it now provides way more ammo (avg 500%-600%) on the highest difficutly than it used to (avg ~150%-200%). For the record 100% ammo restoration is what an ammo kit restores if you use it at 0 ammo.
That’s why they didn’t simply halve the ammo restoration, but introduced a cooldown to counteract how much ammo you get out of those huge elite packs on aurics. It’s probably not a perfect solution but it shows that the intent wasn’t to just nerf it, but to normalize it. It scaled way above the intended design to due indirect changes.
I think there’s nothing wrong with playing mainly ranged. However I think it’s a good change because ammo scarcity is supposed to be a mechanic and the game design is clearly that you have to be forced to melee to preserve ammo at times. If you claim that’s not fun you can still build a lasgun build for maximum ammo conservation and pretty much shoot 24/7. It’s an intended balance factor however to not be able to do this with just any gun, which scavenger due to aforementioned scaling issues allowed you to do for a while. You can say “but I liked it that way”, but I like it this way so that cancels out your opinion
Not enough. I’m preparing a new one.