On the hatredship of gunplay

[Bankrotas]

So this thread is partially to blame for me jumping back in to play.

I fail to see how primarily ranged combat through entire mission isn’t possible. Do you people wanna do it with any ranged weapon there is or something?

[Padds]

@DiamondNova

But that wasn’t my point. My point was that, thanks to that infinite ammo, psyker can essentially go with this 10/90 in melee/ranged. And yet, no one says “we should limit psykers infinite ammo, so they are forced to use more melee”. Double standards, ain’t it?

same standard its just staff does not equal gun. if staffs didn’t have peril you might start seeing it, if staffs didn’t have peril and were as good and fast at killing every ranged and special then probably?

[Ltchickenhawk]

The only weapon I’ve ever really had much issue with ammo on was the bolter but the bolter’s very nature is to be mag dumped at large armored targets. Maybe some of the more off meta weapons like the recon las gun I’ve also had ammo issues with due to low damage and armor pen so you just kind of dump loads of ammo. Overall I think survivalist should have been nerfed but I would have maybe made the cool down like 2-3 seconds instead of 5.

[Rainman]

@Starshine

No archetype should ever be able to run 100% of the time with range weapon and be efficient.

While it has been confirmed by devs, that while v2 was 70/30 melee/range, dt is 50/50 (in some cases 30/70), it should never be 0/100.

You are not who dictates how vet should play, fatshark is. If they changed something it is because it contradicted with their vision of how vet, or this game as whole should have been played all along.

True to a degree - they have a design interest, but those interests are/should be built off trying to create a ‘fun’ experience. There is an appeal to people to be able to build a mostly ranged-focused class, and FS did create a talent tree to reflect that focus. The balance to it is that it’s much more skill-based, to have to really nail headshots to get the most out of it rather than just spraying into hordes. If they tie in ammo regen on elites into the headshot keystone, it should solve this problem.

[gpkgpk]

@Anvillior

My point is that there absolutely should be ranged weapons that prefer clearing the “trash” and should be specced out for it accordingly.

You’re arguing what SHOULD be in a thread of WHAT IS in the game currently.
There should be this or should be that has no bearing on the current state of the game or this discussions.
You can make a post in Gameplay Feedback.

[Antilus]

its clearly not the gunplay they hate, ogryns, psykers and zealots are shooting just fine

there is clearly a double standard, gun psyker was already better than vet at shooting (and at meleeing with that mk4 saber 2 shotting crushers) and they buffed scriar gaze

Ogryn is still busted even without an ammo vet in the team

Zealots never got any value off survivalist since they are never in choesion

so here we are

[fbolduc]

@Ltchickenhawk

The only weapon I’ve ever really had much issue with ammo on was the bolter but the bolter’s very nature is to be mag dumped at large armored targets.

I used to think like this. But then I’ve recently discovered the blessing that guarantees a critical hit if you aim down the sight for 2 seconds. And now it’s one round one kill.

There is a nice rhythm to exploding heretics every 2 seconds, you should try it.

[gpkgpk]

@DiamondNova

All right, I’ve jumped to the cannon little to much, I admit that.
What I’ve ment, is not wasting 2/3 of ammo on literal trash in hordes. I’ve ment that, there is always ammo for shooting primary and secondary targets of specific weapon. It worked quite well before, when if I mainted a bit of trigger discipline, I could always shoot at intended targets. Now sometimes I must skip even primary targets, because of low ammo (gotta save some for dark hour). I was running with 12th lasgun, on auric, the weapon of ammo efficiency, and yet, I didn’t had enough ammo for all those light shooters, which are my primary targets.

I mean…whaydda want me to tell you, we all responded to what you wrote.
Now you’re saying you misspoke?
I’m assuming you’re not MG12ing into trash and still running out? Is that what you’re trying to say? It helps to be clear.
BTW, the MG 1a was superior to the MG12 as of the big rework patch #13, which helps with ammo economy in the end.

@DiamondNova

Ah, before the patch, I could go through enitre round with picking up only one big pack and several more of small ones, that is if there was anyone else who needed ammo. My point is, that you didn’t need to hog all ammo to play ranged first. Now you almost always need that.

Since you seem to have changed your entire thesis in your reply to me and further discussions about wasting ammo into trash is moot with you, since apparently that’s not what you meant to say?

@DiamondNova

We all know here, that game designers in Fatshark can and have some strange or straightup bad ideas, khykhycraftingkhykhy, so it shouldn’t really be golden standard on how one does play, especially when playing on highest difficulty.

How does this make any sense? The game is what it is, you’re arguing theoreticals? Your desire for it to be something doesn’t change the reality in-game and you can’t alter that reality unless you’re green and shout WAAAAGH a lot.

@DiamondNova

Yeah, staffs have lower DPS for infinite ammo.
But that wasn’t my point. My point was that, thanks to that infinite ammo, psyker can essentially go with this 10/90 in melee/ranged. And yet, no one says “we should limit psykers infinite ammo, so they are forced to use more melee”. Double standards, ain’t it?

How is that a double standard? This is an illogical comparison that you’re trying to shoehorn in, but it makes no sense. Lower DPS, managing peril etc. has an impact, the mobs don’t just sit around doing nothing while you vent and range them at a slower pace. You’re killing stuff slower, they get more chances to hit you, you’re moving slower through the map and having more stuff spawn on you. TTK/DPS sustainability etc. have an impact on the pacing and effective difficulty.

I didn’t think the ammo aura nerf was necessarily warranted and seemed heavy handed, but your entire OP was “I want to shoot everything” and now you changed your stance. Perhaps you should edit your OP for clarity to reflect your new stance, it would have saved some typing.

P.S. Are you saying you’re now running out ammo w/ MG12 only shooting primary and secondary targets (no trash) since nerf?

[Kambrin]

It seems that “but why should we, the people who like ranged only, have to suffer at the hands of people who don’t” is a very commonly taken stance in these threads. Inherently however the game is a hybrid combat game. It’s designed as such, advertised as such, and infact and in reality it plays as such. I could ask right back “why should I, one of the people who enjoys the game with that design intent, have to suffer at the hands of people who want it to be something completely different?”
It’s a bit of a silly argument to begin with. Fun is subjective. If you’re not having fun and want the game to change to accomodate your fun, that’s an acceptable thing to want. It’s also acceptable for me to want the exact opposite, and hoping you never get your way because the game is more enjoyable to me this way.

Luckily there’s many games. So regardless of who is pleased in the end, once enjoyment is gone, we can find something else to play

[Palumtra]

If they want me to melee more than reduce the amount of ranged enemies and make melee enemies more challenging/engaging…and yes, using ranged weapon to deal with 628 ranged enemies who spawn or come in randomly during/after waves is quite necessary because they will just shred you.
Kitchen Knife of Nurgle’s Bane destroying hordes and elites alike while allowing the user to run at the speed of light.

[Ashrad]

How the heck people are still struggling at dealing with ranged enemies after they removed stagger machanic is beyond me.

[castkeyboard]

Throw 4 flamer zealots on sniper gauntlet and see how that goes

[Vaeneas]

@fbolduc

I used to think like this. But then I’ve recently discovered the blessing that guarantees a critical hit if you aim down the sight for 2 seconds. And now it’s one round one kill.

I swear. I hate to bring up difficulties, since everyone is enjoying a different aspect of the game, but the whole Scavenger change is made to hit the higher ones the most, so we are bound to talk about it.

In Auric or Maelstrom you hardly have 2 seconds to aim each shot. You hardly ever have one second to aim at something. Surgical Bolter is a playstyle that works, but it is one that ties your hands behind your back, instead of offering possibilities that wouldn’t be available with other builds.

@Antilus

there is clearly a double standard, gun psyker was already better than vet at shooting (and at meleeing with that mk4 saber 2 shotting crushers) and they buffed scriar gaze

Psyker is the reason why the whole “range should not be the focus in DT” argument is null and void.
Any Staff build only ever forces you into melee if sh*t hits the fan. That wont change until they fundamentally alter how the Sparkhead works.

No change to Shocktrooper kind of kicks that argument in the balls too.

[Nubbly]

Why must I suffer having all these options! Oh, woe is me, a poor wretch having the ability to pick and choose different play styles.

Thy mag is full. Tis such a burden that I chose to play a ranged class. Wont some higher power please force less options unto me!

[Kambrin]

Interesting prose but if you think about it for more than 5 seconds, this is a 4 player coop game, and the entire team having functionally infinite ammo affects more than giving me the option to shoot more. I do not enjoy playing melee in a game where my 3 teammates simply empty their mags into everything. I don’t know why people like you keep trying to minimize this, as if I could persoanlly stop them from doing that somehow.

[Tzcheese]

@Vaeneas

Psyker is the reason why the whole “range should not be the focus in DT” argument is null and void.

Well said. Psyker can use ranged 99% of the time even when they’re specced with the intent to play melee.

[MadMartigan]

Snipers are easy to dodge. Even multiple at once. Their sound cue is the most distinct.

[weeping.moon]

@MadMartigan

4 zealots can smash through a match using all melee pretty easily.

@MadMartigan

The game can easily be played successfully in pure melee (which I often do as a zealot) so let’s stop suggesting the game requires both ranged and melee per player

Isn’t it clear that zealot needs nerf? Is it really need to be said out loud that spamming slide and locking 10 shotgunners in melee is dumb and effortless?

That press ultimate button to pull out relic and ignore shooters is dumb also? And overall to ignore any damage

Insane move speed so you can skip difficult to fight spots so fast, game has no time to react and spawn anything? Don’t want to fight on that bridge - sure just knife-heavy through

How it’s not obvious?

Just as obvious that Survivalist was ruining ammo economy for the rest of the team in the first place

As vet left branch is crap and tree is overbloated

As obvious that psyker peril-vent loop is braindead and there is no game mechanics. And staves need redesign.

Etc.

@Tzcheese

People go through 95+% of a run with just melee and whatever class abilities they have, even in the toughest modes, all the time, and nobody gets mad about it.

nobody

You wouldn’t believe, but people do. Because there are some people who play all 4 archetypes with different builds and weapons, and so they are not biased towards any specific playstyle, atleast not to that degree they want to eliminate some of them.

Before patch 13 I was playing with mg12 on my vet, and it was like 80% of shooting. Tho bolter vet was broken back then cause of Survivalist again. It always was a bad idea that is ruining ammo economy.

You can shoot 80% of the time with exe stance + plasma or with brauto.

The problem isn’t in range/melee ratio by itself, and not in Survivalist anymore.

It’s that vet tree is bad, and some guns are bad, and cause of that synergy some playstyles are not viable, like lasgun marksman.

And that range enemies are useless and easy to turn off with yolo rush on any class, while zealot is gigabuffed also

[DiamondNova]

@gpkgpk

How does this make any sense? The game is what it is, you’re arguing theoreticals? Your desire for it to be something doesn’t change the reality in-game and you can’t alter that reality unless you’re green and shout WAAAAGH a lot.

If that would the case, why like half of this forum is about those locks and crafting? Same thing, the game is what it is, why arguing for theoretical locks breaking? Bah, it is even more abstract, because we had old aura, like several days ago, and locks were never broke.

[Riku]

Any feedback is arguing theoreticals