Actually the more I think about it the more I disagree with a talent for this. The way you word it, it sounds more like the issue is with the weapons themselves in general. The only other career also has a talent specifically designed to make use of it.
Whether horde clear weapons are awful is a different discussion. I think they’re horribly DESIGNED…but not horrible. They’re only useful in difficulties with hyper density (which really should have been the base density from Champion onwards)…which imo indicative of terrible design if the only way a weapon shows it’s use is through a difficulty that 10% can play…and locked behind a DLC.
Chaos Warriors are only 2 of the enemies in this game, it also breaks shields extremely fast.
It does fine against everything else, if you headshot armoured rats.
Ranged drop off only applies to certain sections of certain maps. It’s a high fire rate weapon that can be spammed on Hordes and anything else within that range.
When someone decent is on OE spamming, they can make enemies die before others can even think about reaching them in melee, due to the Crank Gun being a near hitscan machine gun.
Shorter bursts of higher damage would be better for it imo. It also combats the stationary problem, in a game where you have to move a lot.
Would prefer to see the focus moved towards his Drakefire Pistols (I think flamer is fine. It does great on IB with no ranged buffs, so OE makes it even better).
It is game design. Hordes are pretty ez to deal with and main source of THP for your melee heroes. Killing hordes from range is hurting your melee guys, not helping. Main problem of any horde clear ranged weapon.
20-2. Perlios overclock. Didnt remember english name.
MWP lack of ammo sustain with OE, damage dropoff, delay on shots (everything you need to know is on Armory Mod), crank gun being clunky and so on. Just stop to being lazy and do your research. Even without playing on PC, I know how the read these numbers.
By the way, It’s crystal clear to EVERYONE, Fatshark buffed Outcast Engineer because of COMMUNITY FEEDBACK about how bad and unfun he was. But they buffed him in the wrong way.
Now you’re asking for nerf and it’s on you to proof why they should do this without messing him again. You’re in a stupid denial about career evident weaknesses before and refuses to elaborate. Only showing situational numbers and your private gameplay will not enrich the debate.
The fact: Fatshark heard the community and buffed OE because of his problems.
And you’re the one saying here he was great and everything was “ok” before.
Your argument: bunch of screenshots and say to people “git gud like me”.
You’re being subjective, not objective.
And you are being disingenuous exactly as I said before. You chose deliberately to ignore my entire post about BH and how bad DFP is for ranged partners to farm THP in a horde.
But you are only worried about people ruining your “elite killing”.
That’s bizarre and contradictory.
Even RV with Str potion and “Ranger’s Party Gift” can throw 2 bombs in a row and put a Chaos Patrol on death’s door. WP can wipe solo a patrol without a sweat (yes, he can’t do it on distance but it doesn’t matter). Shade same. Huntsman with a high skilled player with headshots can do it too.
The whole point is not killing faster or slower, but what is achieavable. OE produces bombs easily and it’s overtuned, need to be fixed. But you think OE was perfect before his buffs, strong and capable of dealing with all situations, which is a lie. His ult only makes him extremely vulnerable.
No. It was said generically about the whole discussion and what’s viable or not to how to fix the problem.
You already dropped the ball with your “git gud” bullsh*t , so you’re not in position to presume about anything anymore.
You know what?
It seems that you’re only reading fragments of my posts and decides what you should reply or not. It’s the only explanation about your deliberated misinterpretation.
I already pointed out your contradictions. I don’t really think you’re that stupid, maybe just pretending to be one.
Being wrecked by 3 Blightstormers summoning tornados with size of soccer stadium behind wall is unfun. This bug was fixed long time ago, but after Winds of Magic, it was brought back again and FS didn’t adressed it.
OE bombs is unfun only:
1 - OE is in the squad (situation 1);
2 - If player chooses to play like Bomberman (situation 2);
3 - If you fight a patrol or bunch of elites (situation 3).
On other hand, Blightstormers BS happens frequently (except on Skaven dedicated maps). Can you deal with it? Yes, but its beyond unfair if they can attack your area and you can’t do anything.
That’s why I posted it. But I conceded it was indeed offtopic. And you quotted it to give a opinion about completely different situation, it doesn’t even make sense.
I don’t know if you’re talking about me, but if you are, I’ll be very happy if you point where and when I said it. I never defended his bombs buffs, my critique was about the “nerf gang” complains with zero solution to actually fix the problem. Nerf only for the sake of it is fruitless.
To fix his bombs and TT, maybe a talent redesign could be a good approach, something like:
1 - Modify:
Ingenious Ordinance to Ingenious Craftsmanship:
Killing Specials has 95% chance to generate ammo and 5% chance to generate a double-effect bomb. Bombs can’t be stacked.
It will make him lorewise accurate, OE crafting things. Not OP, good ammo sustain to bring another weapons (like grudge) and help party.
It will makes him more versatile and worthy the risk to engage with melee. Fix a little bit the crank gun clunkiness.
2 - Add a penalty:
Burden: OE can’t carry Trollhammer torpedo and minigun at same time. Which leads to last line talent:
2.1 - Gromril Plated:
Vastly increases the cooldown time, but makes it automatically reload. Less shots, but powerful. Super armour piercing. A good “oh sh*t” alternative only.
2.2 - Linked Chamber Compression:
Manually reload only, fast firing. If you reload more, you shoot more. Mediocre damage against elites, very good for CC. Intended to give him a more melee oriented role with bad cc weapons (like 1h axe).
2.3 - Change Innovative Hoppers to “Grungni’s Wrath”:
Exchange Crank Gun to Trollhammer Torpedo. Ammo is based on cooldown system. Way less shots than normal, but solid option against Monsters. Excellent single target damage, less area damage.
New perk: Bardin now can block using crank gun or trollhammer as ult.
Yea. Thats another reason why i dont understand problems with his ammo sustain. You can kill pretty much everything with crank. Your ranged weapon is just secondary option.
But if people have troubles wit it, ammo sustain talent should be okay as option.
Sometimes things should be just nerfed without any “compensations”.
Like Javelin. It is top tier after all its nerfs.
Devs dont care about all of this. Players should point the problem and explain why they hate something in the game. I have never seen even once when devs made nerfs buffs like players suggested. And i played a tons of games.
For me the ammo sustain problem is that I don’t want to rely on the Crank constantly, and expected Talents related to Drakefire Pistols for an OE.
It adds build variety.
E.g. RV using Hunter + Crossbow or Grudgeraker can sustain ammo and has interesting mechanics. (I know you can Power stack to great effect on OE now, this was just an example of not needing ammo Traits)
I love this idea. sounds cool.
Riht now Trollhammer is super opressive becouse you can kill everything in the game with crank gun, using torpedo spam only at mixed hordes\boss and patrols, deleting them with few shots.
Right now it is exact opposite of every other class:
Your crank gun is your regular weapon in low pressure situations.
Trollhammer is your ultimate for difficulty spikes.
Of the 3 Crank Gun Talents, only Innovative Ammo Hoppers leans into the iconic minigun fantasy, the other two is a slow fire slug thrower and a basic run and gun assault rifle without the endless fire and build-up that makes the weapon iconic.
It may technically be the least powerful of the 3 talents, but it’s the only talent that lets Bardin rock’n’roll
It’s easy to fix this if you like so much the “cool factor” of this talent. Just merge Innovative Ammo Hoppers with Linked Chamber Compression. Keep the minigun fast fire rate.
Reworking the last level talent brings 3 different playstyles with his ult: slow fire rate for elites/specials, fast fire rate for hordes and cc, and the last one, modify crank gun to trollhammer for monsters.
If people want to lock Trollhammer for OE, I think this is the best way to achieve it (making it conditional for this career).
Otherwise, it will jeopardize the weapon, because now only 2 careers can use it: IB and OE. Making it viable only on IB will not justify the existence of it.
Why not, we already have weapons exclusive for one class. But i like idea replacing minigun with trollhammer. Both at the sime time is too strong right now.
I changed my mind about DFP.
They are pretty damn good. Their shotgun atack is great for giving you space, they does good horde and unarmored damage, and pretty great with more cleave talent
But it needs some slow reduction or vent boosting talent
There is one thing that makes Trollhammer pretty OP that cant be fixed
Is very likely that you will be only ammo user in the lobby. Elgi with Javelin, Sienna and GK\WP. All ammo is yours.
Someone like Huntsman, BH, WS doesnt care about ammo piles too.
Imho trollhammer will be worth taking even if you have like 10 ammo for the entire run.
Becouse in my expirience most runs is faling due to:
CW patrol
Boss spawn in wrong place and time
Disablers in the mixed hodre
And trollhammer is the best answer for everything of that. For special sniping one guy is more then enough to deal with all specials. Had no problems with 3 melee cata runs.
I think when Fatshark released Trollhamner, it wasn’t intended to be IB exclusive ranged, but I can’t confirm this. Fatshark needs to follow Games Workshop’s direction about lore, etc.
For me:
5-3 awful at every single hero. Unless you can clear the map without taking single hit.
10-3 can be useful.
20-1. 20-2 Garbage. But only becouse stacks go from 5 to 0 straight away. Too easy to miss a timing and get 0 stacks without space to charge it.
20-3 Better then others even without its power boost.
25-3 Piston power. Funny but very hard to pull off. Two reasons:
It works really good only with grudgeraker and shield
Any charged atack will proc it when you dont need it. When you need it - sorry, CD.
30-3 Looks cool on paper but in fact it is pretty garbage and noob trap.IMHO main reason why bad players think that OE is weak. To use it properly you need to be top tier player with insane positioning and dodge usage. If you are not top tier player - you will struggle
Strong disagree here. Firstly, it’s 15% ranged power for 10 seconds proc’d on hitting something with a ranged attack, not for 1 attack, and it works with Minigun itself so it’s just 10 seconds of 15% more Minigun DPS with a trivial activation condition.
Secondly the description isn’t lying, it’s actual power, so bonus cleave and stagger too which is filthy for grudge raker (dunno if it hits any cleave breakpoints for Minigun but if it does it’d basically do the same as APS against hordes).
IO is OP and APS is also very strong but Combined Arms is no slouch and honestly my favourite pick of the row.
Classic case of high theoretical potential but not QP friendly. I think it’s fine. The potential Minigun uptime increase is huge and a single other person you’re on mic with helping to keep you covered is enough to get good value from it. I think it’s fine for not everything to be QP rando-proof.
I’m confused. You mean it’s only good when used with a shielded weapon while your ranged weapon is a grudgeraker?
Because I strongly disagree that it needs a grudgeraker to make good use of it.
Hell I disagree it needs a ranged weapon. It’s pretty useful with Dual Hammers and 1-H Hammer as well.
I’m under no illusion that this is probably the weakest of the 3.
But this talent is the DREAM talent that you pick because you want to realize the iconic minigun fantasy that the other 2 talents deny you. You’ll never know true satisfaction until you drink a concentration potion and kill 1-X specials and fire your crank gun from beginning to end of an encounter without stopping.
Plus it’s only the weakest of the 3 partly by virtue of how boring-yet-OP linked compression chamber is.
In all practicality 50% more ability bar is pretty functional however way you look at it.
“Garbage” would be Necromancer’s Armies of the Dead where you get 6 extremely temporary skeletons whose only purpose to is let you vent more freely…or Slayer’s Barge which doesn’t work when it matters or Dawi Drop that only exists because of a meme. Garbage is Shade’s Hungry Wind which is a straight up nerf to the base career skill just for an extremely brief and small power spike or Bounty Hunter’s Steel Crescendo which is counter intuitive to BH’s playstyle.
I don’t think it’s stationary, you can still move but at a reduced speed, and more importantly you can still dodge around while firing.
If you really insist on making it better, most I’d add is some kind of “anti-stagger while firing” buff that protects you from being staggered by damage within a certain threshold.