Really? Warrior Priest can delete entire patrols in Cata as quickly as Engineer chucking 3 bombs and launching a torpedo for good measure?
With WP in the team, his teammates are still able to contribute to the fight, especially since his DPS is anything but stellar.
(that being said his ability to self revive and heal up when downed is a tad busted and could use some toning down)
It requires a rather limited potion you won’t always have access to, be up in the thick of things, you’re ****ed if you screw it up and decloak in the crowd, and it a hell of a lot more effortful than chucking 3 bombs.
It’s a hell of a lot more effort than passively getting a free bomb for doing nothing.
[quote=“maximumgraf, post:76, topic:98725”]
EZ - give him Drake Fire talents. Right now fire guns are almost unusable on him becouse of slow effect.[/quote]
Fair enough somewhat, though I’m rather impartial to the drakefire weapons.
But the goal of ingenious Ordnance as stated by FS is that it’s original function was that of an emergency panic talent. Take that out all he has left is a shield weapon or piston power.
Hmm…would be cool if OE have a drakefire talent that makes it so venting works similar to Doom’s plasma rifle venting.
Be kinda cool if cranking helped vent the drakefire while burning nearby enemies.
That’s what he has at base, we’re talking about his talent tree, completely different.
While their balance didn’t hit the mark, the one true success of the OE rework is that it took out two very bleh do-nothing bonus talents for two talents that adds to his gameplay. The last thing the game needs is another set of talent like the Huntsman’s whose talent simply “exists” without changing him up in any interesting or compelling way…
Don’t forget his new talents replaced two very “just there” talents.
While I disagree with most of those criticisms (minigun always did good damage, and any career who can wield dual hammer or coghammer will hold their own in melee)…
It’s objectively true that he WAS glassy among Bardin’s careers as he had one of the lowest HP total despite wearing heavy armour.
And he absolutely needs babysitting, as that’s by design, FS stated they just went too hard in that direction. Besides…Kruber totally kept you alive in that clip otherwise you’d have died to the special.
And the clunk in his cranking mechanic was (and maybe still is) pretty real, but this last ones subjective so I’ll agree to disagree.
This put it even further over the top yean, but I can understand why FS went with this decision.
It suuuuucccckks to take Bombardier only to never get your hand on any bombs due in part to luck and your QuickPlay teammates running ahead to grab them up before you could get there.
The main culprit in the end is still the infinite free bombs. If the talent had a downside, like drastically reduced max ammunition (“so you’re taking what’s meant to be ammo to craft the extra bombs”) and changed “no friendly fire” to just “reduced self-damage” that might have made it more tolerable.
edit: oh I actually really like my drastic max ammo reduction idea for Ingenious Ordnance, maybe I’ll put that up in the Feedback board.
True, but now we dont need this +2 bombs, becouse you use those perks in combo anyway.
Or may be throw those perks in one single line to choose between and not take both. 2 more powerful bombs from start, or pooping less powerful bombs for free through the run. But not both in the same time.
No. Because they don’t need to waste time reloading their ult and you know it. You’re being a little bit disingenuous.
What? Seriously?
So why Fatshark buffed him and WP at first place?
I answer that for you:
Because everyone, including content creators , community and cata+ players knew that OE was a low tier career, period. He was high risk/low reward, low hp and ulting just put himself in a awkward situation with poor benefits (even Huntsman could outperform him in raw damage doing bodyshots/ult). There was zero motivation to choose OE instead of RV, IB, Slayer or even any other ranged career.
WP on other hand, was good/decent aleady.
And you don’t need to trust me. Just go ahead and do some research about it, and see all content about OE pre-buff.
I’m sorry to tell you this, but your screenshots provides ZERO evidences.
I could do the same on my PlayStation, win a run with MWP with bots and my numbers would be insane even without keyboard and mouse, because:
1 - Bots don’t kill anything faster than you, except some specials and it’s very random;
2 - Potions, ammo and resources are player’s priority;
3 - Missions have random occurrences, so one run could be a breeze, another a hell,
4 - Players could join late in the party;
5 - Numbers doesn’t tell whole story if played with “green circle seekers”.
And even considering all this, again, MWP will not outperform Handgun on special killing (OE), just because the damage dropoff on long distances will waste more bullets and it’s a fact (and you can’t produce ammo like RV, or use Scrounger continuously like BH, or ult like Huntsman, or have insane amount of ammo like Waystalker). Plus, the single shot delay could be a game changer to kill or not fast a special.
SotT is a complete different situation. They released her to be a supportve career and messed up everything. And even her bot was OP. It’s a no discussion .
BW, BH, GK received a nerf because they were trivializing monsters, which was fair enough nerfing them. Except for GK ult cooldown. This nerf is a choice mistake, they only needed to nerf his Double Ult last damage, but it’s another discussion.
Lol hell no. Being immortal and receiving healing when you get damage needs zero skill. But I’m not complaining, WP has no ranged, so a obvious weakness.
I agree, it doesn’t. But you again are being very hypotetical. What if OE don’t had any bombs in this fight? He will use trollpedo right?
The problem is exactly here. Fatshark gave him TWO delete buttons, because he didn’t have alternatves to kill super armour (and don’t tell me about Gromril Plated, it’s sucks) compared to other ranged careers.
If he needs a fix, primarily FS need to fix his design and what OE should bring to party.
You can. Just google it. And I even did that on PlayStation playing FOW with idiotic bots.
You just gave a very generic answer about ranged role in general. You are just being contortionist with your arguments at this point mate.
And point 1 on your list is a strict lie. Ammo sustain on WS, BH, RV, Hunts are so easy that you don’t need to conserve anything. The main goal of a ranged:
1 - Stay alive (which, of course, includes THP farm):
2 - Kill things faster from distance (specials top priority);
3 - Defend yourself to not get downed everytime and be a burden to your team;
4 - Engage on CC only if your team really needs extra push.
Not quickly, but he can do anyway. Unless you’re a speed runner, killing faster or not doesn’t matter.
Agreed. But he can survive an entire run solo if not disabled by any special. OE can’t do anything to super armour without bombs/trollpedo. Except running a melee like Cog, GH, Axe… but good luck with that. His talents weren’t designed for this.
Yes, need skill and RNGesus on your side. But, it’s not that hard to save a conc potion. To nerf something, you need to justify what is the career purpose. Shade was designed to be a dps glass cannon. OE is a ranged career with lack of ammo sustain and his ult do not compensate the effort.
FS only buffed OE bombs because they still doesn’t figured out how to fix him properly.
Lol your sugestion is bring to the table a weapon, that kill trash units before party can farm THP and most players hate, like hagbane?
What a contradiction. So DFP ruining fun is okay, “Because I like it”? Bombs not.
PS.: You guys are just asking for nerf, because he ruins fun. My proposition here is to rework him, specially last line talents, to justify his existence. And only after that, nerfs.
Self-reviving was removed, it was a non-intended bug. You should knew that.
And the counterbalance is the fact that WP is very vulnerable against disablers and lack of mobility (except with H&T). He fulfilled the career purpose “as is”.
I still think people are sleeping on the power stacking build TBH. Having that much raw power makes you competent melee even without other tools, SS can fill in decently for the attack speed deficit.
I’ve run coghammer on this setup a fair bit and it feels perfectly workable to me. You might not have ranged sustain but both your ranged weapon and Minigun hit like a truck with extra cleave so it’s fine.
I do agree with giving him some non TT ranged sustain and drake weapon synergy as compensation for bomb/TT nerfs though. That’d round out his non TT ranged kit perfectly.
It’s workable like you said. But the lack of dodge/mobility/movetech running Cog, make it too much vulnerable. And if even you choose the damage reduction talent per hit, you still can’t compete with other melee oriented careers in tankiness or killing power. Plus, you still need to waste time managing your ult.
I mean, no. But you can keep up decently while also having a steroids pumped minigun and ranged weapon of your choosing. Aforementioned grudge raker ends up with absurd cleave and pairs well with base Minigun or GPS as a quick dispatch for berserkers, maulers, and dense horde pressuring you. Again this is where a sustain talent would be lovely. Drakefire feels solid to me with so much raw power, it’s just lacking some other talent synergy as previously discussed. I kinda miss leading shots since force proccing Hunter on a mixed group for free with drakefire was quite a fun setup.
I do think it’s kinda unique since raw power stacking isn’t something the other dwarf careers really get to do.
Anyway I think we’re gonna go around in circles here. I agree some compensation to make other ranged weapons a bit more desirable on him would be a nice thing to get in trade for bombs/TT nerf. Though even without that I think he’d be fine enough just a little dry. I do think how silly the bomb build is is probably more pressing but we’ll see how/if FS does much of anything about the situation.
Should i say 100 times that i dont suggest to revert all buffs?
Stop ignoring fact that he was buffed in other ways too.
Increased base health to 125. All that metal he’s lugging around has gotta count for something!
Bardin no longer loses stacks of pressure while firing or when the bar is filled. Bardin can also build stacks of pressure while the bar is full.
And it was huge buff. He is super tanky and you waste much less time on charging your gun. A LOT less
He has a gun with unlimited ammo. What lack of ammo sustain are you talking about? His ammo is UNLIMITED. Doesnt matter what talents you pick.
Ehhmmm… You mean ult that can kill 30 monks in a row or kill entire SV patrol by holding left click? And ultimate that can be used trhough the whole run for killing all specials and elites. Are you joking?
Crank gun is the best ranged weapon in the game against unarmored or armored enemies depending on talent choise. Only ranged weapon that can be better against armor is Trollhammer.
As i excpected. Becoue “he will be useleess after bomb nerf” is your only argument. And i can show you like 100 videos of the opposite, you will ignore it. You do it already.
What about videos? They showed that it wasnt ez walk and OE was at high enemy pressure
And again this is not true at all.
Take Gromril plate shots like i did, and you can kill CWezpz
My video showed Coghammer+raker+power stack and +25% Damage reduction build that you discussed.
And you said it will not work. Coghammer will not work, MWP will not work, Grudgeraker will not work, Gromril plate shots will not work. But they work all the time.
And i know нou try to convince someone that Troll hammer + bombs is only possible way to play him, otherwise he is useless. But it is not true at all.
They dont work for you may be (when was last time you tried?), becouse you are not fully ready for cata at the first place. As you said it is only class and build that allows you play on Cata with no troubles.
And second - you rely too much on his press X to win buttons and forgot how to play the game. No one can kill a CW patrol by pressing left click 3 times.
So “he cant delete CW patrol solo” is not an argument.
Are you just trolling now? Or you actually cant see the difference between DFP and bomb?
I agree but balance and fun is more important.
Most careers in the game have one good build and most talents ARE “+5% power\atackspeed\critchance when…” or crap like this. It is just hard reality.
OE already has more cool and fun talents then most of the careers. For example Piston power, Piercing shot and Critical overcharge and good ammount of ranged weapons.
Just noone ever use them becouse trolobomb is so OP. Thats how OP staff ruins build variety.
And without good nerf noone will use them ever. Becoue there is no point.
Trolomob kills everything you can meet in the game with no efforts. Other builds have some weaknesses, they require skill.
Yes. He saved me like he would save any other class is such hard situation like 2 players vs horde and tones of specials. But where exactly was babysiting? He was running forward killing stuff in melee like typical GK
KEK, joined a lobby - guys asked me to swap Engi on Cata+twitch becouse they want some challenge. I said that i dont use Trolobomb
Agreed about Grudgeraker. It would be a great alternative if OE has ammo sustain. That’s why OE need a redesign in some talents to make him more “party friendly”.
Good buffs and that"s it. Not enough to fix his main problem and justify his existence. Bombs buffs was OP, yes, but I already explained to you why he was buffed that much and you chose to ignore it.
Again, or you chose to ignore the whole point I did before or you didn’t understand. And his minigun has a lot of trade-offs, which OE as a ranged career can’t compensate enough. That’s why FS decided to made him a Bomberman, to gave him breathing room while using his ult if he got swarmed. Clutching with him pre-buff was a joke if compared to his ranged careers counterparts.
I didn’t ignored, I just said it doesn’t is a valid evidence. Congrats with your numbers, maybe you’re a very good player. I will not use my numbers on a console as a evidence too, because you need much more than that to balance a career, including: purpose of existence, role in a team, lore, clutching, etc.
Like you denied that Shade CAN wipe a entire patrol alone? I didn’t posted here the videos because it’s beyond pointless. Again, it’s not because you alone can deal (hipothetically) with some situations that’s make it an absolute truth about career struggles or not.
At the end of the day, the general opinion about OE is what matters, which is: Bombs are OP and unfun. He was low tier before buffs. He needs a new solution. TT needs a penalty.
Yesterday. And I still stand my opinion.
And now you became a real jerk with your “ad hominem” attack and lack of solid debate. I never brought to te table “git gud” argument or doubted about your skills.
I play this game on PlayStation for years, did all content on Cataclysm playing with bots or randoms. Our playerbase are small compared to PC, but we have some good heroes here. Playing with controller is way more difficult than keyboard and mouse, we have higher breakpoints on all skaven/chaos, which needs more effort to reach. I Platinumed this game and did FoW on cata with only 1 partner. But I don’t need to show my “credentials” here everytime.
That’s said, you’re the one who is so insecure that you need to post Screenshots here everytime to proof your points .
Disingenuos.
Now you’re trying to predict how I play the game?
You already presumed that I use shield, so no surprises here. I barely use bombs, most of time I gave him to my partners. But again, there’s no point to proof you anything.
You’re so desperate to proof your points that’s you need to spread lies and is not worried anymore how to fix the career properly.
About patrol deletion, you missed completely my previous argument. What I did is show that already has careers who can do it or manage to survive without too much micromanagement. And you just nitpicked part of the whole idea to shuffle your argument. The whole point was about survival and clutchness.
No one can be immortal with a bubble while fighting. No one can kill backstabbing invisible. No one can stagger an entire patrol with a 30s ult cooldown. They all have trade-offs, but none of them need to waste 5s reloading ult. OE weakness not compensate chose him over any solid career without a design fix at first place.
And you again ignored my entire post just to babbling. I said not OPTIMAL. You can sure finish a run using the f*cking pickaxe, but it wasn’t near a good choice. It’s mathematical. Dodge, mechanics, block, movetech, damage dropoff from distance, breakpoints, delay, everything counts. And Gromril Plated not compensate the effort against CWs, that’s why FS gave him bombs buffs (what a surprise!).
I pointed out your blatantly contradiction.
I mained Bounty Hunter and I know how he struggles to farm THP because of his Tithetaker or Blood for Money. IB using DFP destroys his already difficult THP farm. I never complained about it (even if it sucks hard), because I’m not entitled to demand how someone should play the game.
Bombs ruins fun for you, but DFP can ruin the fun of others and that’s ok right?
Classical “rules for thee, but not for me”.
At this point, the whole discussion became pointless already. FS maybe has enough feedback to decide what to do.
And keep arguing with you will just put me in a situation of running in circles, like the other forum’s member said. You simply can’t understand what “optimal” means and start to spread lies about people skills and knowledge. It’s beyond pointless.
See, you ignore even a chance that OE is good without bombs and torpedo.
And again you ignored the video, where i was pretty fine surviving and clutching with no bombs or trollhammer, with grudgeraker and coghammer.
Just as i expected early.
Now i expect you to say " that is not evidence too, nothing is, i said he is useless and clunky! "
What is your evidence btw? Yea, absolutely nothing, only your words.
Okay. I will explain things that should be obvious to anyone.
DFP cant kill whole CW or SV patrol with 3 clicks.
It cant kill mixed horde with specials with one click from mile away.
If you dont understand - read it again and again.
Yea, with a potion. OE with a str potion will delete CW patrol in a milisecond. He will delete it without potions anyway.
WP doesnt kill CW patrol in a second from mile away, it will be a long long grind. So his team can play the game too.
You just refuse to point the difference. I am pretty sure you understand this difference but try to convince someone that there is none.
It was said about you and your comment.
What lies? You say that OE is needed fo Cata BS
If player is any good, he makes Cata a complete joke as OE. It is a fact. Thats areason why so many players want to nerf him and dont want even play with him even on cata twitch.
And even cata twitch deed doesnt need him to be passed. It is a second fact.
trollhammer conservative shooter should be nerfed. And AOE is too strong imho. It is the only ranged weapon that is good in every situation you can imagine and it is stupidly ez to get tons of value.
bomb talents should be nerfed or/and be placed in one line. You should choose free bomb pooping or 2 bombs with double effect. Not both in the same time.
drake fire talent. Drakefire is pretty garbage on OE becouse of slow effect. Drakegun and flamer should be reworked, right now they are hurting the team more then helping.
Horde clear ranged weapons are awful becouse of the game design.
Ammo sustain talent for non torpedo.
Passive ult regen with 0 stacks, even a little bit.
Im my expirience there are only TWO weaknesses of OE (for me):
He is short. For ranged career it is awful. As BH\WS\Huntsman\anyone i tend to use a lot of jump sniping to shoot specials and elites over teamates heads. We cant solve this.
0 charge give you 0 ult regeneration. In hight pressure situation you just have no time to charge your steam canon.
I’d like Ult regen and less Cranking, but you’d also have to make changes to the Crank Guns damage. It can already solo parts of the map on normal Cata.
Do you think that killing 50 plague monks in 5 seconds is too much? XD
20-3 and 30-2 make a crank just a regular weapon. You can swap shoot swap really fast and sometimes you need to spend time on reload. Just as any other ranged weapon, but with pretty much no weaknesses. It doesnt damage CW - like 99% of ranged weapons. And it cant snipe blighstormers from mile away - like 50% of ranged weapons. But you can compensate this with other gun or just let teammates deal with it like everyone else does. And with Str potion you can delete CW too.
Thats why i dont understand how people have problems with it. It is pretty much like griffon foot and BOP combined - big uptime with long reload. But much much better.
Main problem with Crank for me - without 20-3 it feels very annoying to manage. Cant understand why after 15 seconds you loose all stacks, not just one.
Between balance and fun, I’m playing a video game to have FUN, balance comes after the game is made fun. You can’t do it the other way around or you’ll end up with “Final Destination+No Items+Approved Characters Only”.
And the shyte talents aren’t so because they give +X% stats, they’re shyte because they give that stat passively with zero actual change to gameplay (in other words, why bother having a talent tree?). Piston Power is a fantastically designed talent despite just being another+X% stat…is it OP? No, it’s fun and balanced. Same with Curse of Undeath, it’s also a +X% stat (dmg reduction), but it’s effect is significant enough to notice and is highly limited yet controllable, making it 100× more interesting than a simple +10% damage reduction.
Not to say the opposite can’t happen, but your stance is the polar extreme opposite of the other guy to defend the crazy OP infinite bombs.
