It is totally a talent. Without it you just cant spam bombs becouse you have no bombs. Ez solution to reduce spam is to reduce CD. Thats why other classes dont spam bombs in every horde
If player should hold himself back to not kill everything on the map in 0.1 seconds, that is a class and balance problem, not the player.
If you want to give him bomb pooping make a price for it like killing some ammount of elites and specilas. GK and RV dont generate goodies for free like OE.
But get rid of double effect and 2 bombs at start. It is already opaf
And lets stop pretending like OE is bad without trollhammer and bomb talents. I know that most of OE players doesnt have skill to play without it, but trust me he is good. He will be really strong even if you delete those talents and trollhamer completly.
Insulting others doesnt make your point any stronger, it is the opposite.
Yeah Iâve opted for the full power stacking route with OE instead of bomb spam since his rework and I feel like people are sleeping on it because the bomb build is so overpowered. I can make grudge raker hit like 10 maulers per shot itâs pretty funny and enjoyable.
That said I do think he could still use more work on having a âranged careerâ identity rather than his current âbomb + Minigunâ identity and just nerfing the bombs and troll Hammer on its own probably wouldnât make for the smoothest transition. The lack of any kind of ranged sustain in his base kit makes taking non Troll Hammer ranged weapons a bit unappealing, something to consider at least.
Edit: To clarify any kind of ranged sustain that works for Troll Hammer is a big no no but things that work for other ranged weapons while excluding Troll Hammer would be nice.
Again, it wonât fix anything. Because you will only trade cooldown time vs trash mob kill. For GKs and RVs, itâs ridiculously easy to generate beers, strenght potions and ammo, faster than OE can generate bombs.
I agree with you about 2 bomb effect at same time being OP, but this is a tricky situation. Remember OE before buffs? It was unrewarding and clunky to play with him. If the way is to nerf bombs, they should make his crank gun more viable against heavy armour I think.
His ranged weapons trait is good for specials with Handgun (forget MWP), without messing with breakpoints, but thatâs it. OE isnât a versatile career like RV (smoke, ammo and potions), his survivability is compromised when ulting too and his melee weapons should be used for self-defense only. Nerfing him too much will only transform him in a worse RV.
Iâm not insulting anyone, I just answered a little bit harsh before and you deserved it.
Saying âtheir arguments are invalid, they are just cryingâ is insult.
It is like saying" dont listen that guy, he is clearly really bad, doesnt understand the game, and eveything he says is a nonsense with 0 proves. He defends this OP crap becouse it allows him to play difficulty that is too high for him, he doesnt care about other players fun, balance and challenge" Feels pretty insulting, dont you think so?
Yes, i mained him. He was pretty damn good. And not harder to play then Pyro or BH.
Forgot one of the best ranged weapons in the game? Why? It is frkn insane on OE with piercing shot and +30% free power. Why should i take a handgun? To do less? You can go full special sniping of course. But MWP is already great on that.
Isnât a versatile with two ranged weapons, wut?
Lolwut? Let me gess - you play him with axe and shield or hammer and shield dont you? Becouse i know such people who plays with axe and shield, struggles to kill even 4 skaven slaves and thinks that OE is bad in melee.
Youâre comparing a situation where one player is straight up traitorous and actively griefing their team with a situation where players are using the tools as intendedâŚbut FS gratuitously overtuned said tools.
Going by your logic this game should have zero FF because âwhat if players shoot their own teammates?!â
I feel like I donât have to try as hard when I play this character and if I was feeling extra dickish, I could just killsteal literally anything from my teammates.
If you delete the bomb talents, you better propose something equally fun and flavourful.
While I do hate how OP the infinite bomb spams are, itâs undeniably unique and extremely thematic for the career unlike the generic cruddy talents they replaced. Ultimately whatâs important is that OE is satisfying and fun to the vast majority of players, however the current issue is his design is vastly UNFUN for the other 3 teammates.
Ingenious Ordnance is by FS own admission designed as a panic button that OE never had. Whatever you replace it with needs to
be just as thematically linked to the engineer as the current talent
fill the niche FS had intended
Maybe said talent could only generate low damage flashbangs that lights up the area while stunning all enemies in range. Or take a page out of Doom and let him release all remaining steam into a concussive blast in front of him, power based on remaining steam. Or keep the talent but make the players play a more active role in the bomb generation, like if you have to sacrifice a sizable chunk of ammunition to create a bomb.
Iâll also reiterate for the Trollhammer, a unique set of traits to reflect the fact that most of the current traits are irrelevant to it and how different it is to your usual handgun or grudgeraker. Make it a choice that players have to pick to customize it to hurt single targets more or deal with multiple targets better.
TL;DR - heâs OP and needs to be nerfed. But donât nerf the fun and identity out of it like what happened to Moonfire Bow (currently technically viable but incredibly boring and redundant)
Youâre presuming too much. But you have a valid point, if you felt offended, my apologies. Iâm just tired of some players that ask for nerf everytime they feel someone is ruining their fun without a good reason.
BH is not clunky as OE.
I mained BH even after double-shotted nerf, and heâs ammo sustaining with xbow and scrounger is ridiculously easy. FS should buff Repeater Pistol BPs to make it viable, because on Cata itâs ammo hungry make this weapon subpar compared with all other options.
The only issue with BH is TP farm, with can be mitigated choosing Rapier. And âJust Rewardâ talent gives you CDR on critical, makes you use ult a lot without need to save it only for monsters and CWs.
About Pyro I agree with you, but not BH.
No, itâs not. It was on RV pre-nerf.
MWP is not optimal when you play with randoms on quickplay or solo with bots. The damage dropoff, the shot delay and lack of ammo sustain makes this weapon very risky to use. And yes, you can use crank gun to kill specials, but itâs slow. A bad decision, a delay, or even trust on bots or bad ping players to kill specials for you on Cata+, can wipe the entre team easily.
And Iâm telling you this as a Cata console player (all mobs have more HP) , which is easier to aim with MWP than Handgun. Aim with a controller need a lot of precision.
Lol no. I use Dual Hammers almost everytime. My playstyle is very aggressive. Kill things faster or slower with OE using melee is not even the point, because he is primarily ranged. Good luck trying to outperform a melee based career on frontline (and after that will you ask for nerf them too?).
For ranged careers, the main goal of a melee weapon is self-defense, and sometimes open spaces for team survivability.
Get ult-shotted by bad decision happens too. If you get a trollpedo in your head trying to fight a patrol, will you blame the gun or the guy behind the gun?
Itâs curious that nobody complains about GK or RV generating potions and ammo for everyone and call it OP.
Because guess what? Their benefits is for entire party.
On other hand, OE generate bombs most for himself. So I understand the situation.
OE is in a complicated spot right now, his arsenal tend to be very âexplosiveâ doing damage on area.
I donât think nerfing him to the ground will fix this honestly. FS should maybe need to rework some things, maybe the last talent line and interactions with his ult before nerf.
Mostly because neither of those directly leads to a situation where the player himself invalidates every single patrol and bosses solo with minimal effort.
The strength pot can HELP a player achieve those depending on their buildsâŚbut itâs nothing compared to a flurry of 3 bombs flying back to back.
Also ironically and luckily the one weapon thatâd be absolutely insane with the RVâs ammo generationâŚis impossible to pair with the RV
Nobody ever said he should be nerfed to the ground, donât be hyperbolic.
Warrior Priest can do that even without any potion. Nobody complains because heâs useful protecting team and without ranged weapons, heâs weakness is specials, but with good positioning, WP can overcome that too.
Shade can delete a patrol too just ulting, turning invisible and kill, no effort, even on FoW.
But her weakness is to be a glass cannon.
OE have weaknesses, but the general complain here is âhe ruin muh fun bombing , so nerf nerfâ. And what I said, nerf him without being very criative, will only put OE on a sad state.
If you nerf his bombs and trollpedo at same time, what you think itâs gonna happen?
You guys just want OE nerfed, but in this very same topic, Iâve read different opinions about what to nerf. Thereâs no overlapping between ideas.
Thatâs why I said, and will say again: OE is in a complicated spot, FS need to do some reworks first to attain the career purpose.
He will be strong, but not OP. I showed a lot of times that he is strong as hell without it.
And i know that you will ignore this and keep saying that he will be useless without trollpedo and bomb spam.
Wow really? Becouse my practice in QP shows exact opposite.
Crank gun is slow at killing specials? WUT?
BTW yesterday i passed cata with all bots becouse no one joined. MWP no bomb talents.
But tell me more about what is not optimal on cata.
Lets see what players wanted to nerf in the past:
SoTT - there was no good reasons for nerf (Stupidly powerful still)
Javelin - there was no good reasons for nerf (still the best elven non WS ranged weapon still 50\50 with longbow)
Moonbow - there was no good reasons for nerf (BTW it is pretty good)
BW - there was no good reasons for nerf (still S tier and hardest carry)
OE - there is no good reasons to nerf
Trollhammer+ conservative shooter - there is no reasons to nerfâŚ
Yea. agree. They asked for nerfes without good reasons. Those classes and weapons was balancedâŚ
Becouse potion is not âclick to deleteâ button. RV even on his ult with Str potion is still worse against chaos patrol or SV patrol or Boss then OE with base kit Trollhammer+bomb talents.
And yes, it makes all party stronger, OE accumulating all power on himself
RV becomes really strong only on twitch mod with all special spam.
SMAAAAAL difference:
WP actually needs some skill for that. Becosue even 10 seconds is not enough to kill whole CW patrol. But as OE you need to just press left click 3-4 times to delete whole CW patrol in like 3 seconds. And like 1 second to delete whole SV patrol with 2 lefct clicks.
And DONT even try to tell me that it requires any skill, becouse it doesnt.
Can YOU delete cata CW patrol as Shade solo? I dont think so. Saying âno effortâ about something that you are not able to doâŚit is just hilarious.
You are totaly wrong.
Main point of melee on ranged careers:
Save ammo
Generate THP
Dont damage your teamates
Let your team generate THP
Let your teamates play the frkn game
Proc some bonuses like blessing shots or double arrow
Points 3,4,5 why everyone hates flamers and hagbane WS
Ah yes, raise the either bugged or hilariously overtuned (still self reviving?) WP whom with some choice talent picks can instantly fill his fury bar and also heal himself up as he keeps going.
A fine example of good counterbalance.
You forgot to mention the need for a conc pot to make this happen, needing semi rare&scarce potions/bombs (under normal circumstances) to do something is very different from not needing them.
Better balance overall is the first impact, some people being sad that the overpowered âanti everything strategyâ vanished appearing, being the second.
All OE really needs if bombspam gets cut is just moving a portion of that removed power to minigun play and possibly some ranged sustain. Thats all it takes to make him a self contained&functional ranged carry. People would never dislike a better&less clunky minigun + better guns overall.
You cant give him ammo sustain talents without deleting Trollhammer from his kit. Imagine RV with trollhammer.
I dont see any problems with current Minigun and ammo sustain.
+50% ammo and second infinite ammo ranged weapon is more then enough. Most of the time you will be only ammo user anyway.
If someone cant handle minigun speed up - 30-2 is a talent for them.
EZ - give him Drake Fire talents. Right now fire guns are almost unusable on him becouse of slow effect.
How juggling between 3 different weapons is not fun and unique? Are you out of your minds?
BTW another proof nobody asked for:
âhe is glassy, he is clunky, he needs constant babysit from the whole team, minigun is bad against specials, he cant sustain in melee, he is useless without a bomb a torpedoâ and other crap
Can just limit the effect of any ammo perks/talent for the trollhammer, no? And the idea was that just flat out cutting power out of the kit doesnt feel quite so nice vs some degree of shifting it a bit.
Letting the minigun cranks last a bit longer, maybe pierce through low tier enemies with EP + power vs like elf longbow does, etc. I honestly never found him very weak myself, minigun was conditional but powerful. But QOL stuff should still be possible to accommodate if bomb spam gets removed instead.
Why? His kit is already super strong. It is just outshined by absurdly OP noskill nobrain trolobomb build. There is no reason to buff it to the same absurd lvl of power.
Only QOL buff he needs:
Crank gun charge should regenerate a little bit even with 0 stacks.
Agree with this. His damage was always good with the Crank Gun. The problem was clunkiness with the Cranking itself, and survival if youâre not using a Shield Weapon, as he gets no Stam/BCR/Dodge changes.
With a Shield Weapon and Piston Power he was already almost unkillable (can tank Bosses in a corner on modded+modifiers).
Also no synergy or buffs to Drakefire Pistols still kind of sucks.
Shields are for tanks. For surviving you should go 1h hammer. For more DPS Coghammer.
YEAAA Piston power+shield bash is a FK ultimate on 15 seconds CD. Insanely fun and effective combo. And super pistom power works with grudgeraker bashes too BTW. So you even dont need shield for that.
But i am pretty sure 99,99% of players never played him outside trolobomb combo after buffs. Becouse there is no reason, trollebomb does everything like other builds just better and in the same time.
Thats why they are saying that he has no fun alternatives in talents.
BTW another gameplay moment to show how good OE withjout bombtrollhammer:
