NEW Topic - CONTINUED discussion - Fatshark needs to LISTEN to customers

LOL

I have a fear of being… misunderstood

But you are right, I have NO problem speaking my mind :slight_smile:

I realize this is bait… but Im still gonna bite! lol

Well, not for SURE, because I am sure there are those that actually think it IS easier!

The thing you say here that is ‘untrue’ is this:

^ THAT is untrue

If you believe it is EASIER then I’d hazard a guess you are either just trolling (hence the bite), or you really believe it IS. And if you DO believe it is easier, then you represent a VERY low percentage of the Vermintide 2 community since patch 2.0 (and there is NOTHING wrong with that) – and SAYING Im wrong about that dosent make it so – I believe that is a FACT

Pre 2.0, legend pubs would win missions on average 80-90% of the time? At least in my experience. And with respect to difficulty, thats the angle I am coming from here. And since? 20-30%? I am guessing obviously, but you get my point

So what has changed?

2.0 landed… with a big THUD!

The fact remains it HAS become harder to complete missions with respect to the 1.7 to 2.0 jump. You may feel as though it has gotten EASIER, and thats fine, but most complaints I hear about 2.0 are related to the INCREASED difficulty

They wouldnt have anything to complain about if it… wasnt harder… right?

winkity wink

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Viber123 If thats your response then you never played anything but legend public games with public players. I genuinely feel sorry for you as you will never experience the real game and get better at it.

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For massive amounts of players, QP legend with public players is the experience people are having and it wasn’t all bad by a long chalk. To call a pre-made group playing legend as the “real game” is completely egocentric.

I might suggest that QP legend should be the target for any of FS development goals as this is the most likely place to find players who are quite competent and engaged customers but haven’t got a dedicated cadre to play with.

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LOL

Arrogance surrounds you like a cloud of lies! Uh… FLIES I meant to say FLIES! ahem

Yes! You are RIGHT! I will never get better at this game!

Yes! You are RIGHT! I have never experienced the REAL GAME!

giggity giggity

LOL - it was very entertaining - thank you

–=--

But if you want to be taken seriously, you have to say something… serious. And this thread is all about that. This thread is NOT, however, for people to self-massage, as you seem to be doing. No one cares about whether you are ‘experiencing the real game’ or not…

So, to be clear, this thread is NOT about silly trollishness (my new word for the day as now I can identify TWO in the thread), or a study into the ego-centric talk of fools

WAKE UP!

This game has taken a HARD hit to the GUTS and we need to INFORM Fatshark on what we think about it. I hear views that literally make me wonder WTH people are THINKING! But? I dont have to agree with anyone. Fatshark just has to hear it! This is the game you all love, and its this kind of discourse that can have a POSITIVE effect. So speak your mind about things that matter!

I realize some people think this is unimportant, and this is just a game. But I LOVE this game. I WANT it to succeed. We all have different opinions, and yes, some are more obtuse than others, but we should hear them ALL

Even THAT guys! ALL of us

What is your experience with the changes in 2.0? What did you think of the feedback given here? In beta? and as pointed out earlier, how Fatsharks feedback to action loop is working? and, what you think of the stagger-to-damage model introduced in 2.0?

As much as I enjoy reading all of the posts in this thread you people do realize it’s to late right? It’s way to late. Fatshark screwed up bigtime. They cannot repair this dmg. They had the feedback for months and choose to ignore it. Now they reap the rewards. Best thing they could do is to just MAN UP, Apologize for this unsatisfactory result and go from there.
No amount of “new experimental betas” is going to fix WOM however. Listening to a small group of people instead of it’s largest most faithful fanbase was what birdperson would consider “A **** move”. It was a catastrophic failure

I’ve played around 100 hours of the closed extended and open beta for WOM. I left alot of feedback and criticism on many different things. I also reported as many bugs as I could find while playing.
I mainly tested Cataclysm since that was the only thing that interested me and I could finish those runs with some effort put into it. I am one of those people who where heavily against STAGGER in any interation they could think of because I KNEW it would affect combat and make it clunky and slow and tedious which would ruin the core feel of the game. It’s almost like they didn’t care.
In the main game I have over 1100 hours played, mostly on legend/deeds or just for shenanigans since I CBA doing anything on modded realm.
That’s my background.

Now to get real.

Winds of Magic is a cluster **** if anything. I KNEW THAT WEAVES WOULD BE POINTLESS. I KNEW THE STAGGER CHANGES WOULD NEGATIVELY INPACT THE GAME.
And lo and behold, Winds of Magic at 36% on Steam Reviews. MOSTLY NEGATIVE. That’s not good. That’s freaking horrendous. I’m happy I didn’t waste my money into it. And I never will. It’s not worth it. Just to be clear, it’s not about the money. I could easily afford it even with it’s asking price of 16,79€. It’s about sending the message.

So what did they mess up with this game?
Version 2.0 for Vermintide 2 is what truly started it all. The changes to combat, the stagger changes along side talent changes turned the game into something completely new. And I’ve heard some people honestly saying “but this is just abit more like Vermintide 1!” NO! IT IS NOT! I’ve played that to much to know that as the game stands now Vermintide 1 is a much better game than Vermintide 2.

Then came Winds of Magic. Let’s adress it’s core features and reason around them.

  1. The Beastmen - At first glance this is actually a welcome addition. It’s fun when they put more enemies in and not only that an entire faction. That’s great! And that’s where the fun ends.
    With this games hyperdensity, which got alot worse with the Beastmen, came a new breed of annoyance. The Beastmen in combination with the Stagger changes, hyperdensity, lag (To some, I was not affected by lag at all). dodge changes, long range near unavoidable charges from enemies. Fighting them became so tedious it just didn’t feel good. Not to mention they where clearly unbalanced in comparison with the Skaven and the Norsca Chaos. (In the lore I believe that Norsca Chaos should be more powerful than the beastmen since they carry Nurgles blessing but I could be wrong about that). Preferably I would have seen Chaos as the heaviest to fight against and the Beastmen a middleground. However, I still liked the Beastmen as a whole. I didn’t like them to 100%, But maybe 55-60% which is still better than half.
    Beastmen are simply put: Acceptable

  2. Cataclysm - Why this is behind a paywall within the expansion is beyond me. I could be wrong about that aswell since I havn’t been playing this game at all and uninstalled it out of spite for what they did. So if I am please correct me. But from what I understand I need to buy Winds of Magic to be able to play Cataclysm and if that’s the case it’s a massive middle finger from Fatshark in my face. So I have to pay for a bunch of stuff I don’t want just to access this one thing? No thanks.
    Cataclysm from a balance POV felt ok. During the beta it was abit overtuned during certain betas and really enjoyable during others. Another problem with Cataclysm was the fact that someone at Fatshark seriously thought “Oh there’s no special reward, it’s the same as Legend. But do it for the challenge”. Then there’s not point in running 3 Tome/2 grim runs on Cata? Why do that when I can simply do that on legend if I need vaults? Such a blatantly stupid idea from Fatshark. No reward, do it for challenge. That’s not motivation enough sorry. I need to actually see that my effort was rewarded. That being said, Cataclysm is still a great addition to the game, if I didn’t have to PAY FOR IT. This seriously should have been with the 2.0 patch and not Winds of Magic. It should have been added for free to the base game.
    Cataclysm is simply put: A shame…

  3. Raised leve cap - Yup, we all got that. Thanks. Still slightly annoyed by the fact that my lvl 500+ Sienna suddenly cannot spare a few of her overlevels to instantly go to 35. But sure I can live with that. It doesn’t make any sense but I can live with it. No big deal here really.

  4. The New Progression System - OH BOY. Grab the popcorn and saddle down kids because we are about to dive deep into the main poopstorm that is WEAVES aka the badly scripted Greater Rift clone from Diablo 3 with a leaderboard that only the top 1% care about. Or as I like to call it, a huge waste of potential.
    First of all I honestly do not CARE at all about leaderboards just to get that out of the way. Do I get anything from playing weaves to the main game? Oh, I get a frame, Yeah not interested. Not worth my time. Not to mention the weaves are such a massive grind it’s tedious. I’d rather grind in a more fun game like Deep Rock Galactic. Grinding there is actually fun. Wait there will be seasons so I have to grind AGAIN!? Why don’t you just spit on me while you’re at it Fatshark… The audacity to even consider such a thing. Just drop the idea. The Weaves where a complete and utter failure.
    And to add insult to injury. I quite LIKED the new crafting system that came with the Weaves. ONLY PROBLEM IS THAT IT’S EXCLUSIVE TO THE DAMN WEAVES. Why did you waste this potential Fatshark? Oh and honestly I quite liked some of the skins on the weave weapons too. Do we get those in the main game? No? Well thx for nothing I guess.
    Weaves are such a waste of potential and a massive waste of time IMO that I would never EVER put any time into it. And this was Winds of Magic main selling point. I’m not paying for that.
    Imagine if we have had a reworked Deed system or Versus mode instead of weaves. How happy that would have made people in general. Fatshark sure has some wierd priority with their development.
    Weaves are simply put: A Complete and utter DISTASTER

  5. New weapons - As far as I am concered only one weapon actually stood out and felt good to use. It’s pretty obvious it’s the throwing axe that Bardin got. I didn’t like any of the other weapons at all for various reasons. They felt bad, had wierd attack patterns and/or low to weak performance.
    New weapons are simply put: A Shame… EXCEPT YOU THROWING AXE! YOU ROCK!

  6. New level - Havn’t played it. I don’t have the expansion so I cannot say anything about it. What I am going to say however is that only 1 level for the asking price for WOM is a disgrace. You should have added ATLEAST 3 new maps. At the very least 3 new maps designed for the beastmen in mind and with some lore to it. Guess that time went into weaves instead.
    Dark Omen is simply put: I dunno, but only one level is not acceptable for the price of this expansion.

  7. Winds of magic - See point 4.

Now for the last point. The biggest change of them all that ruined the game.

STAGGER

I knew the moment they implemented it and from the first time I hit a rat in the face that this would not do well. It turned everything into sponges and with the hyperdensity and intensity of Cataclysm the hordes where the main threat. Not the massive amount of specials or elites, No, the hordes where the real threat because of how much they stacked on one another and the fact that they could take such a massive beating.
Also here’s the biggest flaw with Stagger. Why would I want to go up to an enemy and push him then hit them when I can simply MACE TO THE FACE!? What feels more satisfactory for you as a player? You don’t have to guess do you? I alongside many others who played the beta did point this out and the issues with the changes to Stagger. Turning a optional Crowd Control ability into a mandatory debuff. Just as I predicted it slowed the game down by a huge margin. It became boring to play. My teams 10-12 minute runs on certain maps suddenly turned to +30 minute runs. It became tedious. Nobody had time for that. I even left a suggestion that to keep stagger and make it viable only apply it to Elites as to make them more ELITE and remove it from the “trash” mobs as to keep them “trash”. And Fatshark KNEW what they where doing. They just choose not to listen to the many concerns that came up during the beta. And there we’re MANY concerns. They had this information, This feedback for several months before the release and they still managed to mess this up is nothing less than staggering.
All of this suddenly came to fruition with Patch 2.0 to the base game. People started to change their review to negative on the base game because they changed the game to much and in to short of a time span. Me included, I changed to negative because I didn’t like that Fatshark did to one of my favorite games.
Not only that. The moment Winds of Magic turned official and review started to roll in Fatshark quickly realized how massivly they has ****ed this one up.
This can most clearly be seen due to their reaction in the Patch notes quoted below:

That’s right, They changed the stagger changes to such a degree that they nearly reverted them. They realized that “maybe going against the majority of our fanbase was not really such a great idea”

Sadly they realized this way to late. Fatshark had every opportunity to listen and take in the feedback that was provided during the closed extended beta. And they choose to ignore it. They brought the game to the brink of destruction. They did this believing this is what the community wanted. But in the circumstances they created. It wasn’t. And in the process of doing this they ruined a perfecly good game and tarnished their reputation with it.
I will never ever again help Fatshark with any beta of any kind since I know for a fact. They don’t want your feedback. They will do whatever they want to anyway and it’s evident based on the results of Winds of Magic and Patch 2.0. And I feel strongly even giving them another chance at this point. That would be a massive stretch from my part.

Vermintide 2 was a great game. Maybe they have repaired it with the lastest patch but honestly it’s to late. You knew Fatshark, YOU KNEW. All I feel that is left to say about this once wonderful game is this:

Vermintide 2

1100 hours player signing off

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God damn…

EVERYONE should read that ^^^

NOW!

Thank you @Silvah SO much for your detailed and passionate response!

Two quotes:

Honestly? I mean, with respect, I FULLY believe you, but… are you SURE this isnt coming ONLY from a feeling of disappointment? I can hear the passion in your words, and I thank you VERY much for the time you took to respond so bluntly to the topic but… again… Is this REALLY true?

And…

^ Was. The WAS part. Damn

EDIT: Oh and your post was so compelling and raw, that I forgot to say what I wanted to say

You started off by saying its too late. I think I know the context you said it in, and yes, sadly it is. 2.0, WoM and the mess it brought, has ALREADY landed in our laps and there is no going back

But… here is a pessimist being optimistic…

They can LEARN from it – if they choose
They can LISTEN to customers in the future – if they choose
They can CLEAN UP the mess they made – if they choose

and I hope…

it will BE their choice

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Given how much feedback was provided regarding Stagger in particular. Yes, They don’t want your feedback. Otherwise the logical thing to do would have been to seek a middle ground. Which they didn’t. Until after the reviews started coming in full negative force.
This is how I personally feel regarding feedback to Fatshark. They seem to mainly care about anything that agrees and pats them on the back telling them what a good job they did.

See it this way. If I where to write a book. And I wanted feedback on the book? Would I ask my family members to give me that feedback? No, They would be biased. The same could be said for any fanboy of Vermintide 2. They will most probably agree with anything they do.
I used to be a fanboy aswell back in the day. But with age comes a certain degree of self criticism. And the fact that I loved this game and gained so much enjoyment from it allowed me to truly point out it’s flaws and errors.

But as you can expect. It was to no point at all.

Which is also the reason why I stated in my first wall of text that the best thing Fatshark can do right now. Is to man up, apologize for this unsatisfactory result and simply move on to the next thing. Don’t put anymore effort into the Winds of Magic. It’s already done for.

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Oh I should say I have NOT bought the expansion, and I cant see myself buying it. Not for the same reasons, but because I am disgusted by the fact that they want MORE money for an expansion that was developed while ignoring customer feedback

<— fan of the game yes, but sure have my limits, and WoM was it

Ok I hear you loud and clear

Thanks again @Silvah for posting here your obviously passionate views and honest experiences

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I’m just one of many who share this opinion. All of my friends who played Vermintide 2 have quit the game and changed their review to negative on the base game. None of them seems to have any intention of returning for now.

Winds of Magic is now at 34% MOSTLY NEGATIVE on Steam. It just keep dropping with everyday that goes by. And it seems to not have any inclination of turning the trend.

Who knows, maybe in a distant future when they release the versus mode I might come back and give it a try. But if the stagger system is still in the game by then… Then Fatshark will become a closed chapter for me. Permanently.

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We have two problems here:

  • Fat Shark not checking if something will be liked by majority of player base BEFORE investing a lot of time and effort into it.
    • What am I talking about? I’m talking about weaves. Who exactly knows how much time have they spent working on weaves just to deliver something that the majority of players are not liking while completely ignoring to create/implement the things that the majority was asking for.
  • Even after they started working on something that the majority doesn’t like, they keep pushing it instead of changing the plans and starting to work on the top 5 things that the majority is asking for.

Call it arrogance, call it stubbornness, call it whatever you like, the results are painfully visible.

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I am on a huge french discord for Vermintide, which we promote a lot in order to have everyone in the same place.
Here we saw a HUGE increase of new players with the expansion, and thoses are players that STAY.
There’s a few difference with here/reddit/steam forums though.
Even if we’re disagreeing with some stuff (already listed a few times, beastmens being more difficult and a bit bugged than the others factions, grind for WoM, etc), we’re not “blocked” in an endless rant that prevent us to enjoy the game. And I really think that it worsen your experience a lot.
Understand me, It’s okay to rant a bit, but if you see only the negative without seeing the positive (which DOES exist), you become biased and every time something goes bad, you’ll remember it while staying blind to all the rest.
I think the game is in a better state right now that all the months before. And on my “community” side, it shows up as numbers.
(not only my side though, a lot of people DID come back to play https://steamcharts.com/app/552500?fbclid=IwAR2-lYKAKA477kk52Me9BDjyYFE72MdS7WzhqO8TAELM1RGdCroBcchcJBo#3m )

Now I can understand that your experience is somewhat flawed because it’s probably not the same as before. But staying in an endless negative rant will only prevent you from enjoying the game, and will probably not be constructive enough to make them change stuff. (which they are trying to do btw, we already saw some Winds grind changes)

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a bunch of vt2 players are apparently only happy when they are upset and ranting. go figure.

Expantion just hit the official realm, any numbers now are meaningless. They could do even more messed up build and numbers would still spike.

I’m sure you knew this kind of negative backlash was coming. Since bugs did not get fixed, basically all the major stuff got changed, things did not get properly tested, there was zero communication during beta… and they did not listen to major feedback. (for example: fixed weaves, grind, chaotic stagger system, op beastmen, imbalanced terror events, no rewards for Cata or weeklies… and they even decided on last minute to break more core mechanics like the temp HP. There is more but I’m lazy to write it all down again…)

In my eyes most of this is perfectly valid feedback and it played out exactly as expected.

Also to this day, they didn’t think like … maybe it would be good idea to create some introductory video to this new messy stagger mechanic … so people at least actually understand how it all works, without having to go to modded realm, getting mods and doing the science themselves, which hardly anyone will do.

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  • Fixed weaves do work (I’m writing about them atm), it’s not an issue.
  • Grind is an issue, I totally agree.
  • Chaotic stagger system is mostly linked to a lot of balance changes instead of a step by step chages.
  • OP beastmens (OP would mean they’re invincible or unfair, the only cataclysm map I had time to clear is Dark Omens, which would prove it’s rather doable though). They are more difficult though.
  • Cata/Weeklies rewards, I guess we’ll see how it goes, but we still have some frames to unlock.
  • Temp HP or rather Cleave HP has been fixed already.

It doesn’t. I did close to 70 weaves in 3-4 days and than dropped it because I wasn’t able to keep the same group and grind sucked, we couldn’t switch players, it was such a pain… I couldn’t be bothered anymore to spend time sitting in keep and whisping people just to get answers like “I don’t do weaves” or “I don’t have the class you need now” or “I only have weave power 350” or “I want to do them in order not jump around” and other replies like this … horrible experience.

Than you have the “Hey I need 46/47/48, can we do that?” … like … no … I get nothing for doing it nad it’s not super easy especially when we were not all maxed out… I just don’t wanna do it… and it’s the same stuff I already played on top of no reward…

So basically it was dead in few days for me.

Will I do more ? Yes sure, if I even get people to play it with, because now that I am doing different stuff, people will finish the weaves and than they will be saying “Dude, I have the 70-90 done… I get sh-t for doing it again… I am not doing it again” :smiley:

Ughr… so bad.

And majority of not so hardcore people will be done in 2 weeks max also, I don’t doubt about that prediction. They will just get into weave level they can’t beat anymore and they can’t get group, then they get different guy in group who is not used to that weave and it won’t work at all etc… and they will just drop it.

Yea, so … fail.

OP as relative to other two factions, and they are, especially archers, spearmen and lightning fast gors with their attacks.

This should have been solved in beta… another fail. That could have been easily avoided. When beta was ending there was still feedback coming that those are still not balanced.

Yea done that in one weekend. That is not solution to the bad reward policy. Imagine that they did same for Legend/Champ/Vet…

It sure is not fixed in terms of balance. Temp on kill is amazing, rest is very meh… unless you got specific combinations like shield & temp on stagger etc. Overall it’s far cry from balanced. They should not touch this at all right now. Considering all the frickin mess that is going on and needs fixing. This was soooo bad decision, it’s unbelieavable.

Again it’s the house is on fire and you go and set the garage on fire also, because why not, let’s make it more interesting.

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Isn’t it too early to say that the new players are going to stay? I mean they might or might not, I don’t know either, but the discount only ends later today and the xpac hasn’t even been out 2 weeks (and that after a long content drought).

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Usually new players (on this discord) comes and go in mostly 1 week of play.
I saw a huge increase of players that are actually staying more than a week. Of course, on thoses, some will also go in a month, or in 3 months, or so… But we still had a greater result getting new people than the previous dlc so far.
But this is not a statistic study getting several discords and comparing numbers, so no worries about dismissing it.
Saying that’s it’s the worse release of all time is wrong though. And watching the “negative review” increasing in numbers (while the positives ones also increase in numbers) only show a sign of more interest in the game that there was before. Which is mostly good news if you want new players.

Except that, from what I’ve seen, most of the negative reviews are from long-time players who are considering dropping the game altogether, and the positive reviews are from new players. Most new players stick around for a while and then move on. If 5% of them stay long-term, then you need 20 new players who enjoy the game for every 1 longtime veteran who gives up on it.

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I’m not dismissing it, that’s great for you guys, I just think it’s too early to know if WoM’s effect on the long term stable playerbase will be a net positive or net negative.

Short term it’s certainly going to do well, it is after all a whole expansion with new content (whereas the previous DLCs were either 2 new maps with no new enemies or one with new maps (but from the first game) and weapons). I’d’ve been surprised if this fact was reflected in any way other than well on player numbers, regardless of what happened in the betas.

Again, content drought. If the ratio of positive to negative doesn’t improve long term I don’t think that’s a good sign however.

Maybe the new players like it more than the veterans do.

FS at least has time to improve on things either way.

Aye, it all comes down to this.

Another problem is if the newer players are enjoying recruit/veteran they don’t necessarily know what it’s like on the higher difficulties yet, it may turn out they enjoy the new Legend less than they would have the old one. We won’t know this until the long term however.

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