only thing that should have a direct impact on which attack an enemy selects is distance
2 Likes
Well that and stagger. Stagger can force enemies to use particular attacks. Particularly CW’s.
4 Likes
Nah dual swords by themselves are not underrated, same as 1handed axe isnt, but Handmaiden has enough steroid talents to make it work. Not ideal for anti boss, shields, CW´s, maulers or such but still not just a lame duck.
(Actually strong against everything else, but dont tell anyone O_o)
I´d say its just the steroid build that´s underrated, way too many are just using the invis and it makes me so dang sad.
…
I do wish the anti armor was a little bit better though, at least so i wouldnt feel like i am trying to break a stone wall with a pair of toothpicks on waystalker when using them…they pair so damn nicely with the longbow T_T
1 Like
I mean personally I wouldn’t say Velsix is being lucky in these videos. However we still have to be careful with this logic. Velsix is not representative of even the average cata player, and the average cata player is already a very small subset of the playerbase. Just because a top player can true solo something on modded difficulty it doesn’t automatically justify the difficulty for all lower tiers.
2 Likes
Not sure what you mean by lower tiers. If you mean difficulties below Cata, I haven’t played them and have not comment on the difficulty. My main point was that Convocation isn’t really that hard if you do it correctly. After seeing someone do it correctly, it’s now because of “luck” or “RNG Spawns.” And sure Velsix is a good player, but what he’s doing really isn’t that difficult. I’m pretty sure you could solo this event without killing any mob that wasn’t a grabber. It’s just a matter of understanding the event, doing the event correctly, and having somewhat passable mechanics.
2 Likes
my experience of legend Convocation was rather relaxed though I will admit I’m not representative of the average legend player…or even cata player, probably
Definitely haven’t seen the alleged special spam or even elite spam people claim though
3 Likes
I think its more than unreasonable to call for nerfs of something if its designed for four people, and you are still able to do it with one, as long as no exploits are used to achieve that, which clearly isnt the case. (There isnt even Invis used in the posted video, which perfectly breaks the game when playing solo.)
It doesnt matter how godly you need to play like that one person. Everyone in your team just needs to play a fraction of that good to succeed. If someone is still calling “too hard”, or “unfair” Iam not quite certain what to tell them.
There is magic in VT2, but you dont need magical powers to reach a level that allows you to clear cata end events reliably, or to clutch them if thats needed.
1 Like
I dunno if I agree with this really, I think difficulty is so crazy subjective that it’s not the best point. Like velsix is a way better player than I am overall, particularly at solo stuff, but even I can just barely put in any effort in base cata games and still do better than most pubs, even more so in legend. But I recall when I first started playing those difficulties that I just died basically on cd and did pretty much nothing for a fair while.
I wouldn’t want the event neutered either, already posted my idea elsewhere in one of these threads, but I don’t think dwons+ tier players being able to trivialise vanilla content really means much. Most people won’t ever get that good, base content should really be balanced around people who primarily play it.
If a legend player finds the legend event way too hard in comparison to other events, I think that’s pretty valuable input. What special or elite spam means to them isn’t necessarily the same as what it means to us, even if some examples are obviously exaggerated.
2 Likes
There are a lot of dang points that demand a retort here!
Except it is, unless you are very, very good…and lucky. Which was displayed very prominently at least once in the handmaiden video.
In theory it is not, in practice, it is, especially his performance in WHC video is far, faaaaar above the average cata player. The handmaiden one i could pull off but my luck with specials, especially assassins, tends to be much worse.
Nah, if you dont clear the ambient mobs then the grabbers become invisible and untargetable, Velsix was clearing anything smaller than a CW rather quickly and thus he only had to deal with an assassin in a crowded spot once.
That was the time he nearly lost.
As for “understanding the event and having passable mechanics” goes, man i do not think you realize how far from normal velsix, or yourself i´d wager, are. So let me repeat it, that performance was far above the QP cata normal. Either of them properly writing…Also how dang lucky at least 2 of the assassin encounters were.
TBH, you’re still missing the main point. The point is that the actual number of spawns isn’t that high and isn’t that difficult to deal with. What makes it difficult is the small fighting arena where you have to fill the bar. Where most people go wrong is making an incorrect decision to stay in the arena or an incorrect decision to drop and kite in a huge circle indefinitely. If you use the terrain to your advantage instead of making it an obstacle, the event becomes pretty easy even in comparison to some of the other events. The number of spawns simply isn’t that high. I’m not even going to debate luck vs. mechanics at this point as that is clearly going nowhere. And I’m not saying any solo content is “easy,” but I’m saying if 4 people do the event the way Velsix did the event it would be undeniably easy.
3 Likes
The number of spawns is definitely high enough for what is ends up being, and 4 people cant play that event the way velsix did. His methods of kiting only worked so well there because there were never any enemy group infront of him.
That and he played high mobility builds&careers.
Also, the specials spawning businesses seems variable, in type, timing and numbers of each.
Which is something you can only do with a higher mobility character/build, or velsix would not have noted charmed life as core for his WHC build there i´d guess.
A slower pick like WS with weaker melee (not running hagbane) would end up getting rundown there regardless of how they kite.
And i am saying that having 4 people coordinate to the point where they can follow his steps is a ridiculous idea to even begin with. Unity in QP is not that high. Nor can just any build or career pull of what he did on WHC/handmaiden.
More than i initially stated, admittedly, but still not just any or every. And while it is clearly soloable on some the event itself is still poorly designed as it encourages splitting and punishes helping teammates ._.
…
Also, he himself noted that the first assassin missing the jump was a fair bit of luck, while i would press the idea that the third assassin happening to spawn in the open and not be moving around instead of spawning on the cliffs was also rather dang lucky.
He is good but he was undeniably lucky with the assassins in the handmaiden run.
that’s straight up not true lol
it’s possible to kite in that event regardless of build unless you run something hilariously slow and position poorly
2 Likes
There’s a good visual of this at 1:10.
Since you’re the only person, that’s taken particular note of the quality, can I ask what your thoughts are on it now that it’s been fully processed by YouTube to fake (rough upscaling to 4k to get higher bit rates from YouTube’s processing) 4k?
It’s pretty amazing how many hits won’t land, even when the backstab sound effect triggers, if you’re running in the opposite direction and aren’t being slowed down by enemy. Even at 5% movement speed this seems to… just kind of work despite the speedbook saying it shouldn’t. I think it has to do with when the enemy starts the running attack relative to their distance from you at the time, but I’m not sure. It’s either that or I’m consistently lucky.
I think enemies sometimes use running attacks to force themselves into the slot system when the slots have been ‘messed’ up. By messed up, I mean when enemies getting thrown around into each other, hyper density etc. I’ve never really tested this fully though.
I’ve found, in my experience, that enemies often don’t immediately attacks players that aren’t focusing on them/already directly engaged with them, which would explain this. Again I could be wrong, haven’t fully tested it.
Thanks. I get your main point, but I think that in a team of four, even if you’re not communicating, if one player emulates the strats and kiting paths seen in my two videos for this map/event then it should be doable.
Thank you for the kind words, but no. I’m very well-practiced at WHC with the Rapier, but I’m not a better player overall. I refuse to say otherwise.
This! This is the key to winning this event. Drop, then get back on the platform quickly. If you absolutely cannot get back on the platform just yet, go up the stairs and drop down to force the enemies chasing you to climb down, giving you more breathing room and time (especially important for low mobility builds).
I’d say the final event of EiF in a true solo can be much harder than this one as it’s a lot easier to get corner, and the build up of waves can happen a lot faster.
If I do it as Merc with the 2h Hammer will that fully convince you? I’ll try to at least. Should be fun.
On HM specifically, especially with the build I used, that kind of kiting still works because Dual Swords have a very good outer block cost modifier, and because HM can dash through anything that blocks them.
I’ll try it as Waystalker too.
If I get lucky each time, it will follow that’s it’s not really luck. We’ll find out soon enough.
1 Like
If you can make it work on merc i´ll have to give up the argument that slower careers cant pull the kite off, but i think you missed a very large part of why the handmaiden run worked.
The high critchance and higher power, and attackspeed, let you consistently stagger stormvermin,and well, a lot of other enemies around that got hit,in a way that waystalker using the same weapon cannot do.
If one tries the same with WS you stagger one or possibly two at best, none at worst.Still i´d argue that the event design is bad in how it encourages a QP team without a tank to split and punishes trying to help a lot .(
Also if you do try a WS run, no hagbane!
Eh, the WHC run wasnt lucky at all but do you really not feel that basically all three assassin encounters in the handmaiden one were?
First one misses a borderline free jump, second one comes at a oppertune time and despite failing the jump doesnt actually go over the edge to safety while the third…spawns out in the open and is stuck in midair just as you go there?
Not using either of the methods he showed there it is not, the WHC build one relies on dodge distance and clearing speed while the handmaiden one relies on the dash and good damage&stagger from that build.
That and also, higher dodge distance, he´d spent his stamina on a few overheads without handmaidens extra i think.
WS lacking either of those could not use those paths, at least not without hagbane…heck WS would have to jump out and delay the event a lot more i think, because she cant replicate that method of melee. That in turn would let enemies respawn and stack more.
Yes, that’s what I mean by lower tiers. However technically cata is a lower tier than cata deathwish as well.
My point is just that a player that can solo cata modded soloing cata modded doesn’t necessarily tell us much about what the situation is in legend quickplay for example. Now I’m well aware that this post specifies cata and I’m definitely more amenable to cata convo as the finale is fairly in line with the general difficulty level of cata I’d say (notwithstanding qol issues). My post is just pushing back on the logic of: if Velsix can true solo it on modded=> balanced and fair in all difficulties.
I also hear “if players just did what Velsix did then it would be easy”. Well, sadly that is not going to happen, it’s just not the reality of quickplay. Whether you consider it easy or not doesn’t really change the reality that in quickplay (again particularly legend which I’m aware this thread isn’t talking about) people are just getting blown up left, right and centre despite their best efforts. It’s not impossible and I’d never make that argument, but it is a bit much when it turns into clutch or fail every single time. There should be some change to at least punish being off the circle a bit less hard as the optimal strategies are not at all obvious.
&Velsix- You are too modest!
1 Like
doesn’t look like luck to me, if there were running attacks you’d have received a backstab cue pretty sure so eh
in any case it’s all kinda nitpicking really, a 4 man team is 100% capable of beating the finale
2 Likes
That’s not at all the logic. If it can be true solo’d without cheesing, it’s probably not too hard for Cata. I mean, like you said I literally specified Cata. I get your point, but I never made the point you’re addressing.
2 Likes
I was trolling myself and got pretty far into the second phase doing a pacifist run with FK before diving headfirst into a hook. With a few more attempts I think it would be workable. I don’t think I could do HM without wraithwalk Bc it’s impossible to gen any temp without attacking and when the elites pile up they push you off the platform pretty quick with kicks and shoves. It might be doable tho.
But no matter what build you do it on I’m sure the response will be, you were only able to do it bc X. I think you’d have to turn off all traits and passives and talents and ultimates to prove your point.
1 Like
Here’s a twitch cata Convo run from a while back, you can see I stay in the event the entire time and it’s really no biggie. We didn’t use many of the resources from the loot rat vote at all (I didn’t touch any until after the finale) and we’re all playing pretty lazily. Yes I’m aware we were in a premade group and yes I’m aware we’re not representative of the average pub.
1 Like
The point he has made so far is that its possible to kite&clear with handmaiden and WHC, i still doubt it´d be anywhere near so smooth on less mobile or melee capable careers.