Battlewiz was spamming jump to clear ambient adds, shade was using mistbuild with sword and dagger to clear out adds and merc…was using his ability for control i´d guess? IB was the only one who really did not use his even remotely well.
Ability use was mostly fine given the conc boon, except the IB who really, really should have taunted the CW´s much quicker.
She could not by simple virtue of a build that cant handle chaos warriors quickly, it takes 3-4 of the 2nd heavy hits from SnD to kill a single one, and its vulnerable to interruptions post the first hit. The only mist build that´d been good for that there is the daggers one.
Had it been an army of just stormvermin or whatnot she´d been invincibly invisible but not against CW´s.
And again, for a normal team that does not have conc boon, what the heck can they do about spawns like that even with such a fine teamcomp? Let the ironbreaker taunt at the right time to save a bit of healing and then they still end up forced out by the stormer anyway. Leading into another two waves of CW’s, SV and specials but no abilities left? Forced out again at best, leading into even more waves piling up.
The spawns can be absurd and its not really cool, i wont say the event should be anywhere near as easy as fort beansprouts but surely it should not be a thing for such spawns to happen? .(
The timer is unfortunately in reverse for me so it’s hard to give the right timestamp, but when it shows the 25 seconds tick the situation starts to get complicated. The dwarf sits on his taunt for a good ~15 seconds past this point, which essentially throws the run. He only taunts when the wizard is already down. At about the 23 seconds mark the shade manages to dodge off the plateau instead of going invis and immediately whacking the CW as he resets aggro. Upon returning on the plateau she opts to sit on invis and inspect the situation instead of killing stuff. I think the 2nd stab on the s&d is the equivalent of a daggers heavy and you can transition into it from a pushstab. You should be able to delete CWs with this technique at that level. I don’t even know the exact numbers, but I do it with the waystalker.
Merc is the only one spamming his shout throughout, but it accomplishes nothing since the team is so spread apart. Also he’s not running Walk It Off, which honestly is a massive question mark at this level of the game. You don’t gain anything worthwhile from the other options, but that is a separate discussion regarding the way talents are balanced.
How would this team comp have breezed through the event without a conc boon? Just by staying together, with the wizard in a pocket having her back at a sorcerer. Then proceed to fight normally until the CWs show up and erase them within the time span of the 4 staggers that are available. People do it this way all the time.
…Point in case was not that goofy group, more attention on the spawns please. I know the that group did not play that well at all but that was not the point.
But on the shade, i think you´ve got the mist and the pain shades confused. Mistbuild is the one that loses the massive one time bonus damage and instead gains 100% crit chance for 4 seconds and …45%? CDR.
So yeah she can hit a CW for a fine chunk of damage but then she cant as she now has no invisibility and likely got other enemies targeting her. Painshade meanwhile is the one who does not get crit or CDR but can basically pop a CW with a heavy from almost any weapon and remains invisible for a while.
Far too ideal and dreamy ._.
Even if a decently skilled group with the same careers stuck together from the start they ´d still end up with the wizard balls deep in melee with kruber and bardin trying to hold a majority back while the shade is clearing normal adds as quickly as possible. To establish a “pocket” you´d need at least two powerful frontliners who can hold back at least a stormvermin+adds group on each side.
Add in warriors and stormvermin and now dwarf, Sienna and kruber cant do anything else while dealing with them, while shade is still clearing and likely has a cooldown on her ability. They would hopefully not bait overheads into eachother and save on healing but they´d still get forced out by stormers.
Then they go back up and new waves come in but now they´ve no abilities, now what? Drop out again and let more waves pile up?
The only way they could have made that fight cleanly is with a painbuild shade poping the chaos warriors instantly and the stormer not spawning far away at some point where everyone are deep in melee! And even then they´d be in trouble with 2 more identical waves with disablers coming in with abilities on cooldown.
A video of a group that does everything right and still gets brutally riped apart would prove your point, not one that shows a group failing due to random button pressing.
I think both sides have merit in their arguments. Watching the vids posted by Incandescent and Velsix, I’m starting to suspect that what’s causing the overwhelming spawns may simply be un-killed elites in older waves crashing together with new waves. Nothing else can explain why I have experienced overwhelming spawns like Frostysir has mentioned (8 elites vying for my attention while specials are happily firing off behind them) but there’s actual video proof showing the spawns are manageable. In a group of players all above the average skill level in cata, like in Incandescent’s video, the most he faced at any point in time was something like 2 SV and 2 CW while sniping 2 specials for the whole event, which is ridiculous, in a pub game, I usually gun down 5 specials by the time the event is a quarter done.
I think the issue starts when a player who does not have the skill or killing power falls off the platform and then starts to play very defensively trying to survive. That just allows the waves to build up, which then slowly overwhelms the players, until the last man standing is left facing insurmountable odds. And to be honest, HM with dual swords, although she has crit talent, still has very low armor damage, to the point where it would be impossible to claim that a team of 4, no matter the loadout, does not have the killing power she has. Rather, the most likely issue is that the general cata playerbase cannot handle 2 CWs and 2 SVs together with the horde. And due to the design of the event, it’s harder for the people who can to assist their teammates (movement slowing puddle requiring a detour, blinding flashbang when dropping off to help a teammate that’s fallen off, lack of breathing space to snipe, etc)
I think your analysis is spot-on. Each wave is some infantry, a few elites, and 3 specials. However, a new wave spawns when the event is progressed or after a certain time period. Thus, if you do not kill the waves, they become pretty overwhelming.
The timer for killing the waves before a new wave spawns is actually really generous. In addition, by using the stairs to force enemy climbs, it is pretty easy to make the waves more linear. The waves are small enough that, once linearized, they die pretty much instantly. The lack of dps comes from staying on the platform the whole time and getting surrounded which leads to just holding block until you’re forced off and then you get stuck in a big kiting loop on the bottom because you’re not using the climb spots to make space. Then a minute has passed and the next wave spawns and you fall further and further behind.
The real question is “what level of play should be required for Cataclysm events?” I believe, if Cata is going to be as advertised, that terror events in Cata should require some level of understanding/cohesion. Some people believe that the events should basically be the easiest part of the map to avoid frustrating losses at the end of the map.
I was once in a Legend run that went extremely poorly. It turned out that the host in particular hadn’t really played Verm2 since WoM was released and had no idea how things changed gameplay and event-wise. In any case, we ended up in a chain of situations where I had to clutch and try to get things to work (dual daggers shade ). At one point between people constantly dying and needing revives we killed so much while outside the circle that the entire arena simply remained empty, about 2/3rs of the way through the event. My question is, if you ever reach that point, is the event essentially paused until someone actually returns to the circle? Might be a viable strategy to let people die, kill everything, then revive the whole group and basically start over as a unit, maybe with the headway of killed sorcerers.
I’ve been doing some pacifist runs and have noticed that spawns stop as well. It definitely looks to be exhaustible. However, I’d have to go check the source code to know for sure. Let me get back with you on that.
what difficulty are you talking about? most cata players are able to hold their own and cooperate somewhat with their team without needing any Communication or just using the social wheel.
“Somewhat” is generally not enough when convo really goes crazy, like 3 CW +vermin+special+mob waves in a row. But it is definitely plenty enough with just some scattered waves of a few of any here or there.
But given how dang much the spawns can vary there i figure i´d like to have the upper limits come down a bit and the lower ones come up, for a more standardized experience avoiding snooze runs or bullet hell runs.
I agree with this. The event seems like such a crap shoot with spawns including what type of healing items you get/patrol or not on the ledge path right before.
Do you get 4 medical supplies and a chaos patrol?
Are folks literally yeeted off the cliff by assassins right before the event?
Is there some random pack rat in the event area?
Or is there literally nothing to fight on that ledge area and then 6 TOTAL CW in the end event?!
The event and the area before it is so RNG that your group could either win the level easily or could be 2 difficulties higher than every other level at that difficulty rating
Are we going to start negging on the area BEFORE the event now?
If you think you cant simply bust the patrol just drop to the lower path. Non of the three possible Patrol paths take that one. Avoiding them doesnt require a degree in shadow magic.
If your team gets yeeted by an eshin you already screwed up by not leaving enough space between each other. By the time you play cata you know how this works and have noone to blame but yourself.
The “random” spawns already got discussed and deemed to random, but not as crazy as some people wanna make them. Incan wrote about having taken a look into the event and even the worst the AI director can throw at you does not line up with the horror stories some people love to tell.
Unless someone can finally give a video to prove their point of this event being unfair and a total horror show its nothing but claptrap. It shouldnt be hard to deliver one, since everyone and their neighbor encountered every sort of busted behavior constantly.
You’re my favorite kind of person. The majority of folks can point out their perceived flaws with this event and we’re gonna get a “git gud scrub”
I can emphatically say that this event is a NIGHTMARE on console because of how many specials you need to snipe with a controller.
I’ve played it on PC as well ( one of my friends quit and went to PC awhile ago ) and its not quite as bad but still really difficult for your average cata pug.
There is a REASON FoW isn’t on the normal map rotation and its because its difficulty is higher than its counterparts.
CoD from the drop down through the end of the event IS overturned compared to other maps.
So save your “git gud scrub” for someone else because everyone left playing this game on legend/cata+/ onslaughtdeathwish whatever you PC folks have was way better than the majority of players that just straight up quit the game 2 months in and again when WoM came out.
you lot are very dismissive of what “the average cata pub” can handle tbh.
Hell the concept itself is going to vary based on personal experience because most pubs I encounter are usually solid enough to complete any content that doesn’t involve modifiers like twitch mode or the weekly event
I mean, i could just reverse this and say that you´ve a very high opinion of them, based on my own experience and we are kinda back to null here.
That said though, video evidence does at least suggests the spawns are rather wildly different and while the worst rolls seem to be thankfully rare overall they do occur, comparatively snooze runs also as it seems.
My final conclusion is that the upper limit ought to sink a bit while the floor ought to rise a bit and hopefully that´d just about settle it. Then that level of difficulty wouldnt be bad to apply across all events.
Not sure if the issues has been fixed but their used to be spawn discrepancies based on host ping, if my friend hosted we got endless horde modifier randomly, additional special triggers, weird stuff, if I hosted it seemed normal. (this was awhile back, I think I remember some patch notes on it) HOWEVER, the game is spaghetti code, recent patches could of messed things up, and reverted the fix, considering we are experiencing other bugs that were declared fixed over a year ago.
You’re AU right? US is wonky, people are uh… not great. Cata is generally better but Legend is a meme, pubs are a liability, but even on Cata, I feel half the time I could be doing better with bots.
Anyway, bugs aside (which if any exist obviously need fixing) our conceptions of the “standard” cata pub are going to vary based on experience…Also arguably how capable we might be individually.
My Convocation experience simply has never been that bad, even in wipes, but it’s definitely spicier than snoozefest events like Fort Brach and Into The Nest; which I appreciate
). At one point between people constantly dying and needing revives we killed so much while outside the circle that the entire arena simply remained empty, about 2/3rs of the way through the event. My question is, if you ever reach that point, is the event essentially paused until someone actually returns to the circle? Might be a viable strategy to let people die, kill everything, then revive the whole group and basically start over as a unit, maybe with the headway of killed sorcerers.