that’s subjective based on player skill though.
the only inherent issue with the nurgloth fight is the final phase is legitimately unfair when it comes to clutching/picking up respawned allies and that’d be a decently easy thing to fix by making the ring actually rotate locations instead of sticking purely to the outside/spawn location
To a degree yes, but also largely on what the game actually spawns in. How extreme the difference between a “low” and a “high” gets is bad in on itself. And while i have admittedly mistakenly though “high” was the normal i do not want other events to have the possibility of such rolls either.
I´d say the difference in what the heck he spawns in is also bad, the difference in difficulty in dealing with a few fanatics vs an army of shields and berserkers is ridiculous.
“Edit”
I stumbled onto a link on reddit that shows what i thought was normal, seems like at least a few others have encountered similar difficulties 
https://www.reddit.com/r/Vermintide/comments/ljkt3t/convocation_of_decay_is_fun_and_consistent/
I was not able to link the video directly : c
I’m not seeing what the actual problem is there, it’s like 3 CW, some SV and then specials
The skill of the streamer aside, walking into overhead, the point was how is a normal uncoordinated QP team supposed to handle something like that mess still? Multiple waves of it? They could not kill the warriors in time, no surprise given their comp&weapons, and then the stormers shot from who knows where forcing them to jump out of the circle. Then they start kiting around, the dwarf survives an assassin presumably thanks to the curse talent, his passive and kruber. Those two and the steamer+elf make it back in a bit later.
But then it´s too late, new enemies have come in to pile on the old ones and its a identical wave by the looks of it, plus more specials. And so down they go. That, was a very normal cata run from my perspective. Except the dwarf ought to have died when he was away from the rest while getting grabbed and that initial assassin would not have flung itself into a wall.
Asking for all the events to be like that? I´d like a pass on that.
…
Also, there wasnt just “some stormvermin” after the chaos warriors came in with more, i´d count about 6 or so in total, which added with the warriors, normal mobs, and specials, is a rather daunting lineup in that area. Escaping and getting back in was not tactically wrong but getting another, bigger wave right after?
If the difficulty of all cata events was raised to that level i would expect a large part of the playerbase to just quit, and we´d likely not see any new ones join either with such a massive gap between cata and legend.
It´s already really big and honestly that is pretty bad for a number of reasons since old timers will just tilt off the newbies(who really dont deserve it) while the newbies will be dejected. They´d go from being decent or even good legend player to useless dolts in the next level : (
IB instantly tosses his career skill out of the window the second the event starts, with nothing around him but meat and fails to use it when its up again. Shade uses Infiltrate one time before the overhead happens, and doesnt kill much if anything. The host gets pocked three times and rather stays ontop of the platform surrounded by meat and armor instead of simply dropping down the ledge to avoid certain death.
That clip shows nothing but missplays and poor decision making. There wasnt even special pressure, just two warpfire at the beginning.
There are zero reasons to force wins on Cata. When you start playing that difficulty you know two things. That the reward is a wet kiss to the forehead from Lohner and that you will die. Lots.
If anything its a letdown if you end up at the end of brachsen the first time and wonder where the game went.
?? those are fine for that???
I swear we’re playing different games and encountering very different players in cata quickplay. I’m curious if Fatshark has any telemetry for completion rates of the event in specific (not just the map as a whole)
They were playing twitchmode and had a conc boon, they all used abilities more than once before the overhead hit. But indeed i also do think the IB could have used his ability sooner but i am not surprised he didnt.
The shade meanwhile was using Sword and dagger mistbuild to clear ambient mobs, senseible since its not really good against chaos warriors with other ambients around to disrupt heavy chain attacks.
Pocked? As in hit from behind by slaverats? Well yeah thats normal there. And after eating that first overhead he´s indeed slow to escape…but thats not really unusual for a normal cata player? They do not often make split second good decisions.
And after they do go down, they make it back up ASAP, group up aaaaand get overrun. They drop out again but this time they start dying, a wild running starts and more chaos warriors and stormvermin spawn +specials.
I would not ask that every run be easily winnable, but looking at the full video there the spawns were ridiculous. At least 2 but possibly 3 waves of stormvermin and chaos warriors with specials for all 3 waves ontop the smaller ones. Disablers in every wave.
Then you look at another run like say the one in Velsix´s handmaiden video and whats it like? Carefully portioned up mobs, little to no mixing between stormvermin and warriors, disablers come in before other waves?
Surely there must be something in between here?
Mistshade cant kill warriors quickly with sword and dagger, takes 3-4 of the 2nd heavies if i am not mistaken, battle wizard was busy jumping around and being a goof, halberd merc does not kill chaos warriors quickly either.
Ironbreaker? Killing things?With a shield?O_O
Sure they can kill them, but not quickly, and thus they pretty naturally end up swamped right away. They jump out…an another such wave comes in and they are forced out again, qued by yet another such wave spawning if i am not mistaken.
I don’t know. I played that event on Cataclysm today with Handmaiden, Bleeddancer and Spear and still survived it. If you have a reasonable Ironbreaker or Shade alone will win you the event. But nothing in the event asks for an optimal set-up or specific builds/careers. Just a check on the surroundings.
They do
Halberd is decent and if you consider mist shade not quick then well…again we’re playing very different games
BW can also butcher CW with bolt headshots
Tbh I’m seeing four people running around randomly and baiting overheads into each other. They have more than enough staying power to just hold ground and smash everything, but I guess it’s easier to complain. 
Decent as in needing…is it 4-5 heavy headshot stabs? Sure its decent, and fairly safe&consistent to do with that range, but its not quick. And mistshade is extremely different depending on what weapon she is using.
SnD has the flaw that the 2nd heavy, the one with armor bodyshot damage, isnt safe to use in an area where more than few enemies are targeting you, so while a shade using it could burn a lone CW down fairly quick she cant do it in a mob…That and the range is a bit on the shorter side so if too many other enemies are around it becomes hard to even reach or stick to the CW.
With proper coordination and teamwork they could indeed, a shame thats rare in QP isnt it…and heck even if they had the dwarf actually taunted the warriors at a good time they´d still get forced out by the stormer casting from some cliff if i am not mistaken.
From there it would not be strange if they died to the next warrior&verminwave that included disablers with almost all their abilities on cooldown. Normal QP party in a nutshell.
If you’re not good enough to complete Cata consistently then yeah… you won’t clear Cata consistently. I’m not particularly good, probably worse than yourself, but I’m not blaming the map if a team that lacks both mechanical skill AND coordination fails content on the hardest official difficulty…
The suggestions Velsix and Incandescent made are very reasonable and would take most of the unfairness out of the map. There’s a mountain of evidence in this thread now that the map is very doable, the fact that you’re still holding this position just look a bit silly at this point.
Seems to me at this point the argument is more about whether or not it’s reasonable to expect some level of coordination in Cata. Even then this event can probably reliably be duo’d so it clearly doesn’t require that much of players.
Admittedly i was mistaken at first, i thought stuff like a heap of chaos warriors+stormvermin+disablers was normal for the first wave/s. But seeing that it isnt, evidently, things are not so bad as i thought they were.
That said though, when they are just that bad, like in the video, even a well functioning team isnt actually all likely to make it. For say that in theory the dwarf taunted in time to give his team breathing room but they still end up forced out by stormer/Gas and the whole running back thing still happens.
Aight they saved some healing and possibly other items that i wasnt paying attention to, but now they have another such wave to deal with but no abilities and there was at least one hookrat in play. Honestly i think even a decently skilled team would be prone to jumping out, again, at this point.
But then they get a third wave, same as the first two…am i really wrong to say a difficulty like this is beyond what should be served in cata? They´d have like six chaos warriors, ten or more stormvermin, disablers&specials and more waves coming in O_O
Point was that their…below average skill aside, the spawns were in fact so bad that even a well functioning team was likely to get pounded even when playing well. Simply change the idea to the dwarf taunting in time to give his team some space from the chaos warriors but they still end up forced out by faraway stormer/gas. The whole “drop&run back” thing occurs followed by another two waves of CW´s + stormvermin+specials+horde occurs again, but now their abilities are on cooldown.
Surely something between this and the much more relaxed waves&spawns like what was seen in velsix videos can be a thing? Event needs not be silly difficult or too tame.
Pretty much. But like I told you before, that’s 100% on them. There’s basically no excuse to fail at anything in the base game with the team composition in that clip. They’re all around the strongest careers available. Unless of course if the people playing them are new. But if that’s the case, what are they even doing in Legend/Cataclysm and why should they complain about the difficulty?
I really don’t understand what point you are trying to make anymore. The event is mostly fine even when playing with umgak careers and umgak builds. There are a few things that can be addressed, but people would still fail it plenty, mainly due to the behavior you have seen in that clip. There is no solution when they run around like clowns and eat each other’s overheads.
I’d agree variability of spawns could be narrowed somewhat, and ideally the spawns would be slowed somewhat if all players are outside of the circle and the progress has fallen back to the previous checkpoint. I think that’d be enough honestly on top of what Velsix and Incan suggested.
Honestly I see nothing that would come even remotely close to “so bad”. Some light infantry, some armor, a few specials.
I assume it’s Cataclysm, and what you’re seeing there doesn’t really do justice to the warning sign the difficulty comes packed with and the tag line “These are the End Times. You will not survive”. I’ve had multiple runs with an early Chaos Warrior wave. It’s a fairly rare occurrence, but I think it’s a nice bit of variability. The only reason why you could consider it to be “so bad” is due to them being split in four different quadrants of the circle, in spite of the fact that they seem to have voice chat and are willing to communicate. It’s just very poor play and nothing to write home about. All they had to do was stick to one of the three possible anchors in their group (the bw, the ib or the merc) and it would have been a breeze. I don’t see the gas rat, if there is one. There’s a blightstormer in there whom the wizard could have probably sniped if they had the common sense to play in a pocket provided by the other three players. That’s what I would do as a bolt staff bw in that situation, and I think that’s what a lot of people who understand the game would do. It doesn’t even require explicit communication or coordination, but comes naturally with a small amount of awareness regarding the composition of your team. Presumably they’ve played together for the entire run, so they should understand and realize what each of them is good at doing.
I mean…to the average cata player even just 3 chaos warriors leading 5-6 stormvermin ontop of a horde with accompanying specials is already a big deal. Add in bad terrain and its a nightmare.
This was bogus from the start, especially with some of the truly silly overpowered stuff that was added.
I disagree, the only anchor that could have worked was the IB as he is the only one with stamina to tank heavy hits on his shield. Meanwhile gasrats and stormers, in this case a stormer, can have absurdly favorable casting distances/locations so they cant be accessed. But honestly the run would have been fine if that was all, but an additional two warrior&stormvermin&disabler waves after that?With little time between each? No that aint cool : (
Heck i went through there yesterday and ironically with a fairly similar team, IB, BW, BH and WS, our gameplan was having the IB sit on one side with the BH behind him and the BW&WS on the other, we´d shift to let the dwarf stand at the center below the pool if chaos warriors came in for a easier taunt. And what happened?
3 warrior&SV&mob waves, 1 pure SV&mob wave, at least 4-5 specials per wave and multiple shields every single wave. Only reason we got through that mess was the blessed fact that both the WS and BW had conc pots for when enemies piled up in the circle too much while the IB was using a pure tank build and had the fine sense to taunt in two of the warrior waves to keep as much order as possible. The BH meanwhile was sitting on that outside pillar and was picking of specials as quickly as he could, occasional warriors with his ability as well.
But despite what i considered really good teamwork we still ended up with 2 people getting dogpiled by enemies and killed by disablers while the BH and IB had ran out at the end…now i like excitement as much as anyone but i think lineups like these are too much ._.
With the risk of coming off as a snarky elitist, if that were the case then the average cata player needs to either step their game up and learn how to play or go back to the challenges of Veteran difficulty.
Once again this will probably sound needlessly high-nosed, but if someone is playing merc/bw and they can’t frontline the situation in that video, maybe it’s about time they start learning how to taffing play merc/bw. Same for the people who think that tanking=equipping a shield, holding the right mouse button pressed and standing still. Or even better, equip a shield, hold the right mouse button pressed and move around so that you pull overheads into the rest of your team.
Eh for a more open zone with normal spawns i´d agree with you, but forcing people to pile up in a cramped area to deal with such hordes and disablers spawning practically anywhere? I signed up for cata, not deathwish or whatnot .c
I dont ever fight bosses in cramped spaces based on the same principle.
From my perspective tanking is essentially holding down a enemy group or frontlining alternatively, a shield can easily do it with its high stamina/BCR and push strength but other weapons, like 2hand hammer, can also often do it.But it depends on what enemies we are talking, 2hand hammer for instance cant “hold” the wave against monks. Halberd cant hold mixed waves because it´s cleaving attacks cant stagger armor.
Similarly…BW can use her ability to delay or interrupt wariors&vermin, even staggerlock one of them with heavies if using the fire sword. But multiple ones? She ends up running too, not right away but it still happens.
IB is the only one who holds, or at least moves back very slowly, and that´s why he is the only true “anchor” in a place like that where moving ends up baiting overheads into eachother if bad or leaving the circle if more sensible…or well FK can do it too.
Oh wow, I watched the clip a few more times and just noticed they also have a purple boon. They’re practically in god-mode at that point and together they could crush a force orders of magnitude greater than what they are facing, but they opt to split up and kite into each other while also sitting on their skills. The shade & IB in particular spam them when nothing is happening, but when the situation gets out of hand they sit on their skills and do nothing. If they had been more proactive with their abilities, the entire escalation would have been denied and the pressure easily relieved. The shade alone is practically under perma-invis and could delete the entire plateau all by her lonesome. You can see her holding block and inspecting the backsides of the CWs when the wizard is down instead of nuking the lot of them.
There’s no sugar coating it. Instead of complaining about the difficulty, those players need to seriously reevaluate their own level of competency and make due changes. Either improve their gameplay or set the difficulty down a fair few pegs, because the current one is a bit too big of a hat.