From all the Heros that got the Dual Weapons He got the Slowest Attack Speed
2 Likes
I highly doubt that giving Kruber’s M & S weapon (which came out several months ago) an attack speed buff is high on the list of priorities, considering everything going on with Winds of Magic right now.
Just as I highly doubt repeatedly asking for it is going to increase said already low priority to be higher on the aforementioned list.
7 Likes
Maybe this isn’t a priority… but it should be. Weapons’ balance is the core of this game. And I think that Kruber has the less strong arsenal. Totally good, but still not as other careers. Mace and Sword seems just a weaker Axe and Falchion or Double Hammer.
And WoM will bring another example: Heavy Spear: a weaker elf Spear.
3 Likes
I fail to see weapon balance as the “core” of any PVE game at all. The core of any PVE game, at least in my opinion, should be the gameplay itself. What you actually do during a match, how you go about doing it, what enemies you encounter, and so on and so forth. All the little things like making sure every class and weapon is as strong as each other comes second.
I agree that balance is a good thing, but only when there aren’t more pressing matters, especially when the class or weapon in question isn’t, you know, COMPLETELY unviable (which I don’t believe the M & S is). Perhaps when Fatshark’s hands are a little less full, they can get around to making it up to par, along with the Tusk Gor Spear.
Balance is far more important in PVP games where they can directly affect another player’s experience, or, in competitive game modes, ranking, within the game. It’ll be far more important for when Versus comes out (however way Fatshark means to tackle that headache).
I’m a Kruber main myself, and I’m fine with not being the strongest. Because I’m not playing Kruber to be a big frick energy dude that can just beat the crap out of everything. I’m playing him because I prefer his playstyle, his weapon choices, his character and personality, and all that other good stuff.
I can’t speak for others, but I’m fine with that. It’s not like I just suddenly stop having fun midway through the game just because an A & F Zealot comes in and lawn mows everything while taking no damage, because I know there’s still plenty of other stuff for me to do.
2 Likes
If you’re having trouble using them effectively know that its push attack is what makes them really special and I’ve found that using them on FK where you can chain heavy and push attacks to regen stamina and have more stamina in general is where they really shine. Huntsman benefits more from the arming sword and Merc benefits from fat cleave weapons.
3 Likes
You are not wrong, but these things are linked. If I have some options that are totally better than other ones… I have less variety and that ruins the gameplay, making it more boring. Think if we had only 2-3 characters. Then I understand that it isn’t a PvP game… I could also tank with Huntsman + 2h hammer, but I would feel I’m losing time.
Moreover it would be an easy fix… Fatshark should just change two numbers…
2 Likes
Linked perhaps, but to a minor extent. It is entirely possible to win games all the way up to Legend difficulty, perhaps even further, using any weapon, career, talents, traits, and maybe even properties (although Curse Resistance is more or less a must) you want, provided you (and your team) are good enough at the core gameplay.
You don’t have less variety, you just have options that either increase or lower your own personal difficulty. You can totally do a Huntsman + 2h Hammer (unless some jackwad kicks you for doing something even slightly off-meta. Frick people that do this). The enjoyment you derive from it, however, is entirely on you.
The game, and any other games for that matter, neither does nor can offer something as abstract and subjective as enjoyment. It is literally impossible to make a product that every person is guaranteed to enjoy.
A game offers you something, and then it is up to you to derive enjoyment from that something. If you find 2h Hammer Huntsman fun, you find it fun, if you don’t, you don’t, and it is entirely up to the person in question whether it is indeed the former or the latter. The only variable is yourself. If you feel you’re losing time doing it, that’s on you.
If you find yourself stuck in the mindset of only picking what’s STRONG, and not picking what you find FUN, the enjoyment you could derive from the game is substantially decreased.
This would be an entirely different conversation if you were literally unable to finish any game whatsoever if you used the M & S, of course, but that’s obviously not the case.
You can also rest easy knowing that anything you or your other teammates choose to bring into the game contributes to the entire team’s chances of success (provided you all work together as a team, of course). So even if the A & F Zealot is superior to the A & F Kruber in every way, as long as someone else on the team picks it, you’re free to choose something else, to choose what you find FUN.
Again, it’s a bit of a different case regarding PVP games, where there is a legitimate incentive of being forced into picking whatever is the strongest or most broken, in order to even have a feasible chance of winning against the opposition due to them doing the same. However, this incentive is more or less artificial when it comes to Vermintide.
Of course, these things may be thrown out the window depending on how crippling the dodge and stagger changes of WoM prove to be, but for now, every weapon is viable. They may not all be as good as eachother, but they are all usable.
I agree, it would be an easy fix, and as I’ve already stated, I’m all for balance for every weapon across the board, when the time is right. Let WoM release, see how the changes affect the game, and then we can see about bringing all the weapons up to par.
1 Like
You can’t really compared anything to A&F on live currently. It’s the strongest weapon in the game. But not for long, WoM balance really brought it down with a big nerf and guess what, it’s still Salties best weapon. Just shows you how unbelievably over powered it was.
6 Likes
I don’t see any problem with this weapon honestly. To be fair it has been quite some time since I have used it, but weaving in plenty of push attacks (which are probably the strongest feature of this weapon) you can do plenty of harm to the ratmen and heretics.
1 Like
It was still Salty’s best weapon because every other weapon he had got brought down, too 
Just glad the billhook and rapier were still good.
3 Likes
Mace & Sword doesn’t need Attack speed buff
If we buff it, then its damage versus monster type should be
1 Like
It was the best because they didn’t drop the damage, which is the some of the highest in the game with some of the highest base attack speed for “heavy” weapons. Along with 25% bonus on dodge speed and distance with a base 6 dodges. Then it has 2x overhead heavies and 20% Heavy Linesmen on push attack.
Krubers dual weapon actually has the same base damage but weaker AP damage. It has 3 dodges and doesn’t have the 25% bonus on dodge distance and speed. It also doesn’t have heavy linesmen or 20% crit on push. But again, when WoM drops, A&F will be dropped to Krubers movement profile.
I disagree, or anyway your reasoning is subjective. You can win with Mace and Sword, you can win with Huntsman + 2h Hammer… you can also win with power 5 weapons… but except personal challenge, there isn’t a sense. For me, it isn’t funny just clicking mouse left button with no results while a A&F Zealot destroy everything.
If a career/weapon is just a weaker copy of another one… I think it is objective that penalize the variety. Regardless tastes (that are totally subjective) every weapon/career must have some objective merit.
And anyway I repeat myself: nothing complicated… they have change just two numbers.
With no doubt you have more hours on beta than me, but honestly I find that A&F is still the best Saltz weapon and still stronger than M&S… what nerf has Fatshark done to A&F?
Anyway M&S should have a little more power vs armored enemies… and maybe more cleave. Should be a weapon that does great damage while another player stagger the horde.
If I remember correctly, dodge count went down to 3 and they removed the 25% bonus on dodge speed and distance.
It still has really good damage. It was just brought down a bit and it is still most likely his BiS for all 3 classes.
2 Likes
I would argue rapier could see some play as well with the introduction of themed waves. I find the pistol shots really good against berserkers, but that’s kinda off topic.
Edit: So could flail against shield hordes.
Yea, fair enough. I guess it depends on playstyle. But shields are the easiest elites to deal with, at least for me. You can pretty much just ignore them and clean up everything else. Even most light attacks stagger them due to their whole shield block animation. It’s very easy to keep them busy while you kill other things. Then when you’re ready to kill them, two pushes and a head shot.
I’m not sure more Attack Speed is what the M&S needs, but I think it does need something more. It’s the one DLC weapon I’ve found myself using the least, but not because it’s particularly bad (it isn’t) - it’s because it doesn’t stand out. I kind of like using it, but I usually find myself going for something more specialized - 2H sword for crowd-clear, 2H Hammer for control and armor, Sword or Mace for mobility, even Sword and Shield for a widely different playstyle altogether (yeah, I know my choices aren’t what seem to be usually considered the best). I like my weapons (both melee and ranged) to fill a purpose, and I’ve had a hard time finding that purpose for Mace and Sword. They’re just reasonably good at everything, and don’t give me a particular reason to use them.
I Think It really needs that Little Speed Buff to match Saltz’s Falchion and Axe and Bardins Dual Axes, if it’s slower then it should at least do more damage but it doesn’t , It’s like normal weapons , if the fire rate is slower then it does more damage , if the fire rate is faster then it does less damage , Golden rule.
So Kruber’s Mace and Sword does the same damage as the other dual weapons but are slower , I don’t understand the devs decision on that
1 Like
Damage and attack speed aren’t the only variables in play. Defensive capability, mobility, cleave, control and armor penetration are all also available as tweaks, and with significantly more effort, interesting attack patterns. That’s why I’m not quite certain just increasing attack speed would do the weapon justice - I find it too “generic” and can’t figure out where it would be advantageous to use it compared to other weapons. It doesn’t need to be as specialized as, say, Two-handed Sword, but I’d like for it to sit somewhere else than smack in the middle of stats. Using any other weapon, I can gain a significant advantage in one or two area while not necessarily losing that much in other and/or being able to compensate for the weaknesses with my ranged option. As it sits so deeply in the middle, I also can’t see any particular direction where it could easily be taken to give it some character - though I wouldn’t be a fan of changing to to just another paired weapon.
3 Likes