What isn’t fine?
DnD is really hard to play well because it requires you to be able to take advantage of the high mobility. If ur good at dodging you can play super aggressively with dnd which makes up for the low base dmg. In practice it would mean that a weapon like halberd would have to back off and block every now and then against for example 3 CWs but daggers being so fast can just keep spamming charged attacks and dodge dance. The chargeds are also very good for headshotting and your crit multiplier is massive which makes ur armor dmg good. The dagger dot is really potent aswell, 2 light attacks + dot will kill a marauder for example. That makes hit and run tactics really good with dagger aswell for fighting multiple maulers or berserkers.
Doing good horde dps is the hardest part of playing DnD especially if u wanna play with ur team. Basicly you can either just spam lights if ur team has enough control or you have to keep dipping in the horde and dodging back. The best way to kill a horde with daggers is by circling them and mostly spamming attacks and occasional push to interrupt enemies that actually get close enough. The insane dodge range makes it so most running attacks wont reach you if you play it well. Also never hit the same target twice because the dagger dot will finish of any horde enemy you touch.
DnD weakness is tight spaces. If you don’t have enough room to take advantage of ur mobility ur dps will suffer because fighting density with daggers is more spamming push than actually hitting. However, there aren’t very many places where this is a problem. The only map that can be quite problematic at times is the troll tunnel. For example, empire in flames I have soloed with HM (no stealth, no dmg reduc) dagger longbow.
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Completely agree. Don’t get cornered and DnD are awesome! I main Shade with DnD and never have any problems with armor.
Another really nice perk is if everything goes to s*** and you have to run for it, you can just hold block and run at full speed away from everything. Every now and then a light running attack will hit your block but nothing will slow you down.
sorry i don’t share this opinion (shade main here), SnD is the strongest weapon for shade imo. glaive is far too slow for ability generation (SnD can get back ability back in mere seconds hitting many targets quickly) and cannot perform a double execute on elites or chaos warriors, and you also can’t perform multiple quick backstab kills (without ability). dual swords has too little damage for single target, and DnD has no horde defence. if you are running dual swords and dnd, it’s only to complement a party where either single target dps or aoe dps is maxed out.
@Flinlock @Noppa I think the damage should be increased a little, because not everyone plays shade, but that’s not that important.
What’s important and what’s the main problem about DnD, is the fact, that its charged stagger is so very low. Its anti armor stagger is lowest possible among all charged attacks. it is so low, that even 90% of light attacks stagger more.
Same goes for unarmored stagger, though in this case, it is lower than only about 80% of light attacks. Hurrah.
Fun fact: charged stagger on unarmored is the same as light attack stagger. 
hmm, not in my experience, if i light attack an infantry and try to go behind it, it will recover before i can do a backstab, however if i heavy attack a chaos infantry, the stagger is long enough for me to go behind and do another heavy strike.
unless you mean something else?
No. Probably the value is given for 1 dagger, and you hit your enemy with both. Probably…
But even then armored stagger is still awful. This way it’s better than 50% of light attacks or so and still inferior to 90% of charged attacks stagger-wise.
Guys, no need to tell me that DnD can work. I know that every weapon in this game can work somehow, if you have enough skill and hrs played (and of course in internets all ppl have awesome skill).
Question is not “How can it works?” but “Why does it peforms poorly comparing to other Elf’s or other classes’ weapons?”. You understand it, right? I’ll give you just one small example. We have Dwarwen 1h Hammer, it has ~0.52 base attack time (BAT) on light attacks, while daggers have ~0.42 BAT, DnD have 2.52 cleave and Hammer 11.3, also it has way more stagger. If we compare heavy attack we’ll see that daggers do 6 dmg (3+3) with bodyshots and 11.5 dmg (5.75+5.75) with headshots while hammer deals 14.5 dmg with bodyshots and 22 dmg headshots to armoured target. Of course you can say “But hey, DnD got OK damage with crits vs armour!” and you are right, 1/2 heavy can deal 11 dmg bodyshots and 17 dmg headshots when crit, but how can you rely on crit in this game when you have only 20% crit chance on Shade/HM and there is no bad luck protection? You can defenetly have 8 crits in a row and just delete CW with 4 heavy attacks, but you also can have 0 crits in 10 or 20 attacks, and it will take your HM ages to kill CW or Shieldvermin with DnD.
P.S. All numbers I’ve wrote are with raw 600 hero power w/o any other buffs.
Fun fact: spear heavy attack does as much damage to armor as 2h sword. Yet everyone agrees, that 2h swords is awful against armor, yet the very same people keep telling how good the spear is at dealing with armored targets.
btw, spear charged attack is worse than a greatsword even against unarmored targets, and we know how often the latter is used… it is not used at all, because even greatsword regular attack is better.
DnD deal even a little less damage than spear (and greatsword), this is also true for 2h Kerillian sword.
Though DnD has a little better charged attack speed, and it is easier to hit head with it, so it performs a little bit better at dealing with armor compared to spear, but not that much. And 2h sword has a nice head multiplier, but I’ll get back to it later.
Now let’s compare those weapons to the glaive. In general you need 3 charged hits with the above weapons to deal as much damage, as 1 charged hit of glaive does, and you can do 2 HITS IN A ROW with a glaive, as we all know. EVEN REGULAR attacks of glaive deal more armor damage, than charged attacks of stated weapons.
And this is also true for other armor piercing weapon. Usually they kill armored targets at least 3 times faster.
But what’s with 2h sword head multiplier I’ve mentioned before? Well, it is really hard to hit head with it, as the hit is usually gets registered at the upper chest or at the shoulder, but if you wanna play that card: "good player always hit in the head " ™, then I am sorry, these weapons are still inferior.
Because SUDDENLY you can also hit head with armor piercing weapons. And glaive has THE HIGHEST headshot damage in the game, paired with x-sword. Other weapons also deal more damage if you hit head, and usually their swings go downwards, which makes hitting head much easier. Yes, if always always hitting head, then 2h sword can compete with other weapons, But they will still be 30%-50% more damage. But you will not hit head head 100% of the time!
As for other listed weapons, they don’t have crazy good head multipliers, and they will be as bad, even if we consider this assumption.
So no, Kerillian does not have a good armor piercing weapon outside Glaive and 1h sword. I am sorry, but that is the sad truth.
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It’s honestly a preference, i prefer daggers as i’ll do the trade off to get the mobility / faster attacks + bleed ( helps on leg marauders ! 
)
Closest comparison IMO is S&S, slightly slower slightly better cleave, i like them better on shade because of the ability to take out 2 big targets with the ability. The whole ‘‘well DND got great crit damage for SW’s’’, is somewhat mute in this comparison, as S&S hits the same benchmark.
The way i play i take less hits and clear hordes better with D&D, BUT compare it to lets say a glaive then well… it does all of this reliably with no need to crit 
So much fraud, so much sophistry. Some of your facts can be recognized as misunderstanding, but there is also a lot of fact juggling, so I think your whole actions were intentional. Idk why you’re doing this, trying to show that DnD is useless, since it is not.
Now to the facts:
Hammer has 5.6 cleave. 11.3 is a stagger mass value
It is the same.
Also somehow you forgot to compare the damage. Somehow I think the damage is important. Dual daggers deal a lot more damage thanks to the DoT.
And I know you realize how important the damage is, since you stated it for charged attack comparison. Sure, let’s ignore those stats, that favor the daggers.
Btw where did you get this data from. According to this data DnD has only about 24% more attack speed than 1h hammer. Seems plausible, but I think daggers have about 30% more, especially if you take time between combos into account.
You also “forgot” to mention, that 1 of 4 hammer attacks has as much cleave as daggers, which means, that hammer has less than 5,6 on average. And that the pattern of 3rd and 4th attacks is worse, than that of daggers. So you either attack with bad pattern, or use push attacks, which makes AS even slower.
And let’s not forget the fact, that daggers give a lot of mobility. One more point goes to them.
I think this is it.
In conclusion I’d like to say, that dagger is a good weapon. The possibly need some damage from dot distributed to hit damage, some more charged damage, they definitely need more stagger and poison on charged attacks, but overall, it’s a decent and fun weapon, and it works pretty well against unarmored targets.
Do you understand that when you are playing with party your “bleed” is irrelevant coz everybody is hitting whis marrauders and it matters only on bosses and in true solo?
Again wanna give you some numbers, DnD light have 4 attacks with BAT 0.42; 0.45; 0.37 and 0.67, when SnS also has 4 attacks with BAT 0.45; 0.45; 0.6 and 0.55. And you can block-cancel 2 slower attacks with SnS, if you do it then you have nearly same attack speed on SnS light attacks as DnD light. And about cleave DnD got 2.52 and SnS got 7.07, in which universe 2.8 times more cleave is “slightly”?
Well, hammer got 0 changes in 1.07 and this spreadsheet Vermintide 2 Melee Damage, Cleave and Attack Speed (1.0.6) - Google Sheets says that it has 11.3 cleave. According to another spreadsheet https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1uxu2_tmbea2xoAYogVunPuJBFGaZUiPMbH0j6XYwhVo/edit#gid=714950244 it realy has 5.6 cleave. So I don’t realy sure what spredseet is wrong, but that was only one example. we can compare raw stats of DnD with lots of other weapons and see that in general DnD is not good weapon at all. I don’t say it doesn’t have it’s own good points but in general there are a lot of weapons that are way better then DnD.
As I said in one of my previous posts, I know that DnD have decent single target damage vs unarmoured targets, but with such low cleave it doesn’t matters, you clearspeed is still low comparing to top tier weapons like Glaive, Halberd, etc.
Vermintide 2 Melee Damage, Cleave and Attack Speed (1.0.6) - Google Sheets From here.
And about last hammer’s light attack, you can block cancel it, many ppl do so on lots of weapons. For example with SnD you almost every time hit only with first two attacks vs horde, many ppl do it with SnS, just because 1-2 attacks of SnS are way faster then 3-4 attacks.
So you wanna say that DnD is a good weapon but it needs some buffs. Good weapons =/= need buffs. Good weapon may need some rebalancing, may need some nerfs, but if you says “need buffs” I don’t see how is it good.
I agree that it’s very fun weapon to play with, but let’s be honest, it sucks vs armour, it sucks vs high density hordes due to low cleave numbers, it realy shines only vs high HP unarmoured targets(monsters) and against small groups of trash/low density hordes.
P.S. Can’t wait for today’s 22GB patch, hope I wouldn’t be dissapointed with it 
Slightly, as in effect you still stagger anything up to marauder chieftains : o
He messed up the values. The stagger is the same.
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Just trying to simplify things since he got so much… well wrong : >
You seem to have misunderstood my whole comment…
By this I mean that I don’t think those weapons (excluding 1h sword cos it is an anti armor wep) need armor dmg buffs because they aren’t supposed to be armor killers. Spear is supposed to be a defensive melee weapon with good unarmored dmg and 2h sword, just whatever the other 2h swords are but with a sligth twist of having a little better armor dmg with the charged stab isntead of swipe. DnD, I think, is in a good place being able to compensate the lower dps with more mobility which means higher uptime which, in turn, means more dps. The armor dps of these weapons is about average, thanks to good reach / high mobility, which is plenty enough to be really viable options for legend. The only problem atm is that glaive does the unarmored dmg best aswell which makes the other weapons really underwhelming in comparison because they cant compare with the elite dps.
They are both quite average at dealing with armor, I never said that spear is better at it than 2h cos i didnt wanna go into details about these but since you brough it up. They both have similar dps when hitting dummies by just spamming chargeds but in reality spear can do way more because of higher reach, longer dodge and mini dodge with charged attacks. So in situations where ur killing a lone CW 2h sword is just as good but when it actually matters, so against multiple armored enemies, spear can play way more aggressively which means more dps (and safer cos higher mobility). Another situation where spear shines is when armored units are surrounded with unarmored enemies. Spear can handle the unarmoreds way faster than 2h can because ur light stops at armor and charged is slow against trash or if you have to make room fast to stab an sv in the middle of a horde the spear pushstab is great for it, 2h pushstab is very slow in comparison. DnD, I think, is pretty much on par with spear on armor dps in realistic situations.
So elf weapons in terms of realistic armor dmg
Tier 1: Glaive, 1h sword
Tier 2: Spear, dag
Tier 3: 2h sword, gers
Tier 4: dual swords, snd (These weapons have next to no control and low reach, while also being slower than daggers and with less crit & headshot multiplier)
Elf weapons balance for legend (non shade)
Rank 1: Glaive (is closer to balanced on WS)
Rank 95: Spear, 1h sword
Rank 95- : daggers
Rank 96: 2h sword, dual swords
Rank 96- : SnD
Everythign after glaive is really well balanced, though, imo. Changes that i would like to see on top of the glaive nerf:
2h sword - fix block → light attack input bug and make push stab combo into light attack sequence faster.
SnD + daggers - slight increase to charged armor dmg
SnD - Change the first charged to be daggers instead of swords.
Dual swords - increase charged attack stagger to armored, atleast with headshots.
Dude, they’re worst at dealing with armor. They are only superior to 1h sword, 2 swords and Grudge-raker. How’s that average? Do you even know what average means?
Anyways, I am don’t wanna argue no more. I’ve voiced my arguments. You don’t like them. Well, there is nothing to talk about then anymore.
gl, hf.
Snd, dual swords, 1h sword (kruber sienna), dagger (sienna), fire sword, all 2h swords are worse and many weapons are comparable so i’d say they are pretty much average.