Huntsman Sure Shot

Warhammer: Vermintide 2 Gameplay Feedback
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What is Fatsharks stance on Huntsman?
The goal/intentions behind Sure Shot, e.g making him more accessible.

Any chance a developer could shine some light on it? @Fatshark_Hedge

Sure Shot left a fair number of people, including myself worried about potential changes.

Edit:

After some digging, I found the reasoning behind Huntsman’s rework.

Huntsman has lacked in his identity and focus, having a very generic passive ability without much to play around with outside of scoring headshots, as well as some slight ammunition sustain. This change intends on changing up his gameplay with adding more leniency in triggering all of Huntsmans headshot centric effects, without taking away that part of the core gameplay for existing builds.

Originally one of the most difficult careers to design for, Huntsman has always been somewhat of a black sheep when it comes to fulfilling a niche while keeping a clear identity. Starting out giving some insight, there’s a slight discrepancy between Markus Krubers identity as a character (design wise) and the Huntsman career in that originally Markus was never a career that was supposed to be the premiere “Skullcracker” kind of character where the player is encouraged to chase after every headshot they can go for. Around came Huntsman and we needed to figure out a theme that worked well for that kind of career. Rewarding precision shots came naturally with the “one shot, one kill” kind of idea of a Master Huntsman, but it clashed with the notion of Markus core identity. The decision was made to go ahead with the concept anyway since it felt pretty rewarding for pulling off skillful play.

But it’s always been abit of a pet peeve where we felt that there existed a subset of players that enjoy the idea of Markus Huntsman as a career but didn’t mesh well with his gameplay having a very high skill floor. The idea behind the experiment of Sure Shot as a concept was basically “How can we lower the skill foor of Huntsman without affecting the skill ceiling, still allowing existing players that have mastered playing a very headshot heavy career without feeling that the gameplay that enjoyed having been taken away from them”. We looked at the most popular builds of Huntsman and ensured that these would still have a place and remain largely unchanged. If a player has 100% headshot hitrate, then Sure Shot should change nothing in how you play the game, you should still be able to play the Huntsman you enjoy and keep doing so. Now this isn’t a realistic number to keep up with so even the most proficient Huntsman player does get some kind of bonus from Sure Shot where that one stray bullet that hit the arm instead of the head. The removal of Waste Not, Want Not was a decision made based on testing and data. A vast majority of players ran Conservative Shooter as is on Huntsman so ammo regen should still be available, the tradeoff for more consistent headshots fed by the trait while having to utilize abit more ammo management seemed to be sensible since during our testing it was showed that it was basically impossible for Huntsman to run out of ammo with Sure Shot and WNWN.

The intent of the Huntsman rework was not to remove the reward for skilled play, but rather open up for a subset of players that might have felt daunted by the high reliance on headshotting to trigger effects in his kit. While the idea of Sure Shot as a resource is interesting, the amount of stacks you could gather became eggregious, aswell as the way you gained them being too static aswell as encouraging some weird gameplay. This change should reward skillful players while also opening up talent options for those that want a more straight forward approach to Huntsman.

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Hedge, any news regarding the next BBB? I would at least have a reason to go back to playing.

Now, whether it’s Sure Shot or something else, that Huntsman needs big changes is certain… at least in my opinion… as well as many other careers.

We are all waiting for news.

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I’ve been playing Huntsman almost exclusively for the last month and I think he’s pretty great. Maybe the weakest of Kruber’s careers but still perfectly viable on cata and legend. I used to be worried about ammo sustain so always took the ammo on specials killing (shot crafter?); but, recently I switched to the 40% damage reduction talent on the same tier and it makes him so much more robust, and ammo sustain is still not a problem, especially with bow or handgun.

It also helps if you take Bret longsword and THP on kill - that weapon is insanely good.

I really don’t think Hunstman needs 'fixing, especially not with some auto head shot abomination that we had in the BBB beta.

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What’s huntsman need that other careers don’t? Everyone’s got annoyingly restrictive builds & bad talents that should never be picked.

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Aye. I’m against Sure Shot.
I’m just curious about the developers reasoning, could start tailoring suggestions to it.

Huntsman is near perfect in my opinion, WNWN gives him a lot of weapon/trait variety that other careers don’t have the luxury of.

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Yep, it’s also a general problem… because, despite BBBs rolling around, we still have mandatory talents and talents that no one would ever think of using (not to be rude, but sometimes I wonder who makes these patches how much they have played)…

But, on the other hand, I think Huntsman is one of the worst-thought careers… I’m not saying he’s weak, the problem is that you need an high skill level to play him (that’s good)… but then you get rewards that, with other ranged careers, you can get for free and effortlessly.

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No news at this time. I’ll let you know as soon as I do!

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You really don’t. Because ranged weapons are so strong, most of the power of the ranged careers is wrapped up in having effectively infinite ammo. And Shot Crafter & Keep it Coming are both excellent ammo tools.

You need headshotting skill to maximize huntsman, but just playing him in normal content is dead easy.

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I don’t quite get this TBH. If you’re specifically talking about a Hunter Longbow build, I’d agree that takes more skill than an average ranged career build to get good results out of. For the other ranged weapons though? Rep Handgun goes brrrrr, Bluntsman is pretty damn straightforward to play and do well with, and handgun is a body shotting machine which doesn’t require many head shots to sustain ammo if you bring CS with it, plus you can take shot crafter if you basically don’t want to bother with headshots at all.

I dunno, I mean replacing kill temp health with cleave would give him an easier time in melee with a number of weapons, but aside from that I can’t think of anything he really lacks. I find him generally much more versatile and easier to get results with than BH and I probably have 10x the hours in BH so uhhh, yeah he doesn’t seem that bad to me.

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Compared to the average level of other careers, Huntsman needs a higher skill level, that is what I meant.

The discussion here gets complicated… but yes, my talk was mainly about Manbow… about the other weapons, there would be still another speech, different for each of them (for example the bad synergy with not-headshots-weapons);

Anyway yes, Huntsman isn’t a bad career, playing him does not make him feel weak… but a lot of problems arises when you compare him to other careers. In the end I’m boring, I’ve said this many times, but the gist is that nothing will take my mind off that all the rewards you get by having good aim and hitting the head, his rivals can reach them with much less effort.

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“Needs” must mean very different things to you and I.

Yes, if you want value out of every part of huntsman’s kit and build you need to be good at headshots. But that is a far cry from the skill being a necessity.

If you want to see a build where good headshot skill absolutely is 100% required, then go look at Piercing Shot waystalker. A build where the player has to forego all ammo sustain and the normal behavior of their ult. A player who can’t tap heads more often than not is arguably going to be worse with Piercing Shot than they would be with no talents on that row.

By comparison, huntsman works perfectly well at all skill levels. Even if the third talent row is kinda dead when you’re bad at headshots, none of them are make or break.

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Well, yes, manbow is a somewhat awkward weapon but that oft discussed manual zoom toggle would probably be enough for me TBH. It’s still a pretty damn strong weapon though to be fair. Synergises real nice with Hunter and is pretty versatile in that it is effective against basically all enemy types.

I had that issue with him for a while too but honestly Keep it Coming has alleviated those to a large degree, and shot crafter has always been a great pick for those weapons. I do think blunderbuss is kinda awkward on him, more so than grudge is for RV certainly, but it’s a far cry from performing badly on him.

Depends what you want out of him I guess. I’d struggle to think of another ranged career I’d rather be when faced with a Chaos Pat for instance. His Ult makes every one of his ranged weapons damn solid in that situation. He’s arguably not the best special sniper I guess but he’s still more than good enough at it with basically all of his builds. He has such good sustained damage output I think he handles himself well in most situations.

Not saying some of his talents couldn’t be tweaked for the better, but honestly I’d say at least half the ranged careers are arguably in a worse spot for build diversity and talent viability than good ol’ Kruber.

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The shotguns are just awkward weapons in general since the WoM nerfs.

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I just wanted to know the reasons behind Sure Shot. :eyes:
If I remember correctly it was to make him more accessible, improve/emphasize his headshot identity and pickrate.

Could tailor some suggestions to help all 3.

@souI23 I’m still unsure what exactly you want out of Huntsman.
You once said you want to play Repeater Handgun Huntsman like an AK-47/spammy weapon and change his headshot identity because it’s apparently difficult to headshot with Blunderbuss and Repeater Handgun.

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Huntsman is becoming the hill I’m prepared to die on.

His is bloody brilliant how he is. As with all careers there’s some no-point-picking talents, and he is definitely not so easy to use as autoaim WS getting ammo back via ult, or Crossbow BH spamming through with impunity, but he is a solid and excellent pick as part of the team if you know how to use him.

I think HS Blunderbus was part of the first ever team to complete FoW in Cata, so he’s not so far behind anyone else at all. Someone picked him to play to attempt FoW so he’s definitely not left behind like some people make out.

Please, by Sigmar, Valaya, Grimnir and Orion do NOT make him a mindless, low skill idiot by giving him back guaranteed headshots or something. He DOES NOT need massive changes AT ALL and maybe needs a tiny tweak to his Manbow by giving people a toggle for the zoom, simply to shut them up - and as I said a few talents don’t get picked.

I mean the very sentence “It’s hard to headshot with a blunderbus” tells you all you need to know about his design and asking for improved headshot capability via blunderbus is downright bonkers. He’s a precision headshot career who can also run blunderbus very effectively - to the point HS can wipe out Skarrik in seconds at cata with Blunderbus.

I’d actually suggest without his ULT, BH is a much weaker ranged career with no strong identity.

There’s nothing wrong with HS, and I’m getting a feeling people who want him fundamentally changed think he should be WS or BH 2.0. LEave him as he is - a high skill ceiling ranged career as it stops all of the classes ending up the same.

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yeah I was gonna say I’m pretty sure the problems huntsman faces are more or less the same as every other class rn

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@Argonaut14 Aye, I’m agreeing with you.

There are ways to make him more accessible without cheesy auto headshots.
Improving his headshot identity is pretty easy too, just improve his headshot reward.

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Obviously yes… because if you’re telling me that to play HS well you don’t need an higher skill than BH and WS (apart niche build like Piercing Shot))… I can only say: “I disagree”.

I don’t remember what you’re talking about, but it’s simple.

If I had a choice, I would implement an HS - WS exchange. I’ve always seen elves as better archers than humans, with superior sight and aim, so more suited to headshots. While huntsman fits better on stealth and bodyshot (in fact, in real bow hunting, one aims at the heart,
not to the head… and I know that, in the Warhammer lore, huntsmans are not hunters, but Kruber is no longer part of the official ranks… and serves the worship of Taal, God of Nature).

BUT I’m just fantasizing. Read this part as a simple chat. Returning to the concrete, however, Fatshark was clear: Huntsman will be based on headshots.

Am I happy with it? No. Do I accept it? Yes… and here comes the pivotal point.

If they want to set him this way, high risk, high reward, he must be harder to play (and he already is)… but he must also have unique / better rewards (compared with the other, easier to play, careers)… which, don’t get me wrong, doesn’t have to be Sure Shot… an alternative, even a very different one, suits me as well. I’m opened.

I didn’t understand if you were quoting me, but I never said he’s weak, nor I’m claiming Sure Shot… however, on the other hand, I find two things to be objective:

  • he’s the most difficult ranged career to play (and, for me, he can remain so);
  • the rewards he gets from headshots aren’t unique nor superior to what, his rivals, can reach with a smaller skill required.

I don’t want him to get easier to play, I’m not crying for Sure Shot, but I want more “appropriate/unique” rewards.

This just for clarity, to avoid misunderstandings… I don’t want to start an endless discussion or die on this hill.

@alsozara but I’m not saying that HS has no strengths (as far as I believe, against a Chaos Patrol, that BH is superior)… I repeat: it’s a good class. The problem is that, as a level of strength, he’s around the other careers… but he’s more difficult to play. If he has to be harder to play, must be at least a little bit stronger than the others (high risk, high reward).

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Might be bursting your bubble here, Huntsman isn’t very difficult to play, he has potentially some of the lowest skill floor ranged builds in the game.

  • Handgun is a literal point and click adventure, body shotting most key enemies.
  • Blunderbuss is in the same boat as Handgun, just a different job.
  • Repeater Handgun is a just a lot of dakka, pew pew.

Empire Longbow is the only notable high skill floor weapon, Hunter builds are very rewarding and opens up some decent body shot breakpoints, anti CW and bossing.

The one change I would make is replacing Call Out Weakness with Makin’ it Look Easy
(Bumped to 30% to maintain the same psuedo crit crate)

Call Out Weakness is a pretty garbage passive, replacing it with Makin’ it Look Easy would make headshots more rewarding across the board, indirectly buff Burst of Enthusiasm and open up a new talent slot for e.g Power on Headshot (BBB talent), cooldown on headshot or something else entirely.

Accessibility could be solved by a talent that allows Huntsman to proc headshot related talents via melee headshots e.g Level 25 row. Hell if it could proc Waste Not, Want Not it could replace Shot Crafter and do away with a special reliant talent.

Potentially room for melee variety too, I know Huntsman is a ranged career but could also serve as Krubers melee finesse career, a potential home for something like 1h sword.

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Assassin instead of Bulwark perhaps?
I think some attack speed somewhere would go a long way in making Huntsmen a smoother experience as well. Currently the only ranged career without any unique sources of attack speed.