Thoughts for the next BBB huntsman

Warhammer: Vermintide 2 Feedback
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I know fatshark wants to rework or increase huntsman’s pickrate, and they tried it previous BBB by adding sure shot, but i think they should abandon that idea all together.

Sure shot is not needed on huntsman, its almost impossible to run out of ammo on huntsman, the unreliableness of headshots are not an issue, as huntsman already has plenty of ways to negate ammo loss (e.g: ultimate, shot crafter, passive, traits, keep it coming). Also the obvious plenty of ammo on maps + ranger veteran support if available.

The argument that its unreliable to trigger talents or passive (conservative) such as; thrill of the hunt or making it look easy, due to it requiring headshots and pathing being weird sometimes doesn’t really matter in practice. Even with blunderbuss headshotting is not difficult. (very hard to miss at close range) You also have all those safety nets already to negate ammo loss.

The only issue where huntsman can lack is on bosses and areas where its impossible to headshot a certain boss, which can drop huntsman boss dps alot on certain weapons.

There is currently plenty of freedom in build choices.
Also huntsman has great power in melee combat and has the option to go hybrid or literally range 24/7 (e.g; bluntsman, while also being kinda broken).

So i would suggest to fatshark, that next BBB they take a look at Burst of enthousiasm and maybe increase thrill of the hunt a bit (also replace movement speed with dodge range, pretty please xD ). But don’t try to add any fancy reworks, as that will only lead to balance issues on a career which doesnt really need it. (only some little tweaks here and there).

Reason that huntsman has low pickrate

Mercenary

My proof that i am knowledgeable: I am bluntsman main on cata and i have friends that use the inferior bow weapon on him.

Just some thoughts to fatshark for the next BBB!
I know alot liked sure shot in BBB, so pls don’t hurt me.

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I stand by the point that the reason he seems awkward is THP options, and some Melee Weapon Attack Speed, despite not wearing armour.

Once you get around 50% HP or below on him, it’s a struggle to maintain THP.

But he needs one or the other, THP changes OR Melee AS. NOT BOTH.

  • Health Generation % (like boon of shallya)
  • AS
  • Different THP generation Talents

Why Attack Speed?
Kruber’s Weapons are slow with lowish mobility. The ones that work with his THP generation especially.

Attack Speed gives safety in the form of; faster stagger on attacking enemies, faster and more THP generation, gives him more survival in general.

Why Health Generation or THP changes?
As mentioned above, the Weapons his current THP options work with are slow or don’t offer long term survival against MIXED HORDES.

Health Generation would suit him best, as his THP decays so quickly, as he should mainly be using his Ranged Weapon.

On-kill THP can work with Bretonian Sword, Mace and Sword, but he’s too slow or lacking too much damage to make use of it beyond that.

On Stagger works well with Shields, but because of his low Power, he doesn’t Stagger enough enemies with other Melee Weapons. It also doesn’t work on Chaos Warriors or Bosses.

Longshanks:
It’s completely outpicked by Shot Crafter and Thick Hide.

Adding ‘Less Temp HP degeneration’ to it would make it really viable for playing with more mobile Weapons.

On his strength in general:

  • I rarely run out of ammo with him
  • Shotgun is his best build, and one of the better builds in the game
  • Repeater Handgun is capable of doing near top damage if you spam Elites and Specials (probably is the best Ranged Weapon for killing Specials in the game)
  • Handgun works surprisingly well, now that you can spam shoot with 40% CDR and Keep It Coming
  • I rarely see people using the Ult for Special killing, despite it being it’s best function with most guns
  • Longbow does good damage, but is an absolute chore to play with
  • Play a trinket with 10% CDR and Stamina Regen, and the Talent for 40% CDR. GG

My suggestion before was to merge it with with his old Talent ‘Maim’, or to switch Make 'em Bleed with Maim and instead have Make 'em Bleed merged with Burst of Enthusiasm.

OR the Power stacking Talent. That was good too.

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I strongly disagree. In my opinion Huntsman needs a reworked version of Sure Shot (I repeat: reworked. It’s not my intention to bring back beta’s Sure Shot).

If Fatshark thought about Sure Shot isn’t because he can finish his ammo (even if we have to say that BH and WS can recover more ammo, without any effort and in every scenario… unlike HS and RV, wich need headshots -good aim skill- or specials -absent in certain situations, for example during lord fights-)… Fatshark thought about Sure Shot in order to give to Huntsman a real and unique reward for headshots.

As they wrote, their intention is to make Huntsman even more headshots focused… confirm the high risk, high reward style. In order to reach this goal, Huntsman has to be rewarded in a better way… where “better” means “more appropriate”.

What does Krub obtain by headshotting?

  • More ammo… BUT nothing unique. The other careers can regen ammo as well without problems;
  • More damage (thanks One in the Eye)… BUT a simple Elf Bow or Crossbow can already one-headshot every special and every elite (CW apart);
  • 25% crit chance… cool, BUT other ranged careers have Bloodshot and Blessed Shot… which are no less useful;

It’s not too much about “buff” or “nerf”… I prefer talk about “rework”. A real and unique reward.

But I disagree also on other parts… for example headshots with weapons like Blunder or Rep Gun are just a mess RNG.

Or again: also the other ranged careers have really strong melee options.

And this is my intention too. We already talked a lot about Huntsman… and despite your posts are always civil and motivated, I think it’s useless start an infinite discussion. A common point is quite unlikely.

So… nothing. I’m just throwing my ideas to Fatshark… and, to be honest, I was about to open my own thread and I think I will soon.

Best regards.

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If they want huntsman to be rewarded more on headshots, then i’m not against it. I’m just against the idea of giving free headshots or being able to ‘store’ headshots or aquire them by other means (aka: walking).

Yes, crit chance might seem like not such a big deal, but 30% crit chance is pretty insane. Which in turn can proc scrounger/hunter and even make em bleed semi reliably, basically every 3rd shot, which is more then enough time before the buff runs out.

If it was headshot damage only on range, yes i would maybe say it needs some adjusting, but it also works on melee, so i think this is a good and rewarding talent.

Reload speed, yes i can see it needing a little more increase. This is mostly because i don’t like handgun and wanna be able to reload it super fast. (even if that might make it unbalanced :slight_smile: ).

Temp hp on range, i also think is a bit lackluster, needs a bit of love. But this might be difficult as it could be very strong if they change it. so i would be cautious with it (or just replace with something else entirly)

So you just want to rework huntsman because he doesnt have something “unique” going for him? like no blessed shot, etc?

Yes i know. Was mostly throwing my opinion out there. its ok to talk about some more i think, maybe discussus about some common talents we both have issues with? like temp hp on ranged etc.

edit: also wanna add that WS has to choose kurneous reward to be able to get insane ammo regen. i would say huntsman has more reliable options, but less broken ones. So he cannot get BOOM all his ammo back in 1 ult, but he can get less but more consistent ammo back in my opinion.

Yes i agree, they could give him a better temp hp option (cleave), or change the burst of enthousiasm into something interesting so make up for that ‘lack of temp’.

Attack speed would also be a great idea, as he already has talents that work in melee. Good idea.

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Weapon Special zoom/unzoom trait
Headshot or count as headshot talents…
don’t think AS is necessary just need to use one of his faster melee’s 1hs, spear or shields.

Range dps needs to be better at melee skill wise due to the horde nature of game and tunnel vision of range.

Here was my attempt [Hero Ravamp] Kruber

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Perhaps huntsman should get an extra 5% attack and movement speed passive because of his light armour, with some perk options for extra stamina and doge range. Maybe also play around with the idea of damage reduction while dodging for ranged characters, either as passive or as talent.

As for rewarding head shots, why not give him cooldown reduction on killing an elite or special with a headshot? Maybe even give extra temp health if ultimate is already active

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I liked the power on headshot talent, maybe that could make a return

Other than that idk he’s in a pretty good place, giving him access to cleave (or even headshot/crit) would open up more options on him in melee for sure though

and of course replacing certain talents such as Burst Of Enthusiasm with something more interesting/competitive would be swell too

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It’s a complicated speech and my english isn’t so good. I try to explain.

In the previous BBB’s patch notes, Fatshark wrote that they wanted to better define the Huntsman’s headshot style because they find his current design a little bit anonymous… and I agree and I want to underline this point.

It’s not something like “BH has Blessed Shot, HS has to obtain it too!”… but if Huntsman has to be so “focused on headshots”, I would like some… cooler rewards. I can say so.

Now, I’m against to the old Sure Shot… but, for example, if we rework it in a properly way, paradoxically it can make improve the headshot style giving to it a real reward. High risk, high reward.

I mean, he can already one-headshot everything… so, the reward, has to work around bodyshot. Something like “headshots give more headshot damage” hasn’t much sense for the written reason.

But I don’t want focus myself on this point… it’s just one possibility. I have other ideas… another example can be this one:

We could rework that talent and make it a passive… something like: “If you have a decent headshot ratio you can obtain some power bonus in order to open the access to a couple of new breakpoints”… and so add new strategies around properties.

Or again more penetration… I have always hated that a “slow to charge” weapon like Emp Bow has the same penetration like Crossbow wich can even shoot directly in hip fire.

About One in the Eye. Yep, the talent is simply perfect. My complain wasn’t about the talent itself… just about the fact that every “sniper weapon” can already one-headshot specials and elites… for this I would like some unique reward/aspect.

About Makin It Look Easy. I agree with you, it’s cool and I like it… but it’s RNG. Once again it’s perfect as talent… but to define the career’s style, in my opinion, we need a more consistent passive.

All this not to say “You are wrong”… rather we agree about certain aspects. Just to explain my opinion.

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it’s important to keep in mind this talent also affects melee and is pretty powerful in that regard

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Oh well, i agree. They could give him that talent, or buff some ‘headshot triggerable’ talents.

And some weapons could get some stats tweaks, not against any of those things. I was mostly letting fatshark know that huntsman doesn’t need an entire rework and is already in a pretty good spot, or even great spot with certain builds (cough bluntsman cough)

So yea we kinda agree

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Extra Power on Headshots seems rather needless.

Blunder does not register Headshots properly and the Repeater will start crying a river.
Ontop of that headshots are lethal to anything but CWs. If you wanna kill a CW with a Handgun you need four bullets with one in the eye.
Even with the new faster reload speed he is gonna chop your head in after the second Reload. If the damage bonus would be anything but Heavy Bolter level ridiculous they wouldnt do anything. Especially if the stack would be consumed on targets who would die to normal headshot damage anyway, OR take less damage from headshots.

The major problem of Huntsman right now is that he does not play like a range career. Most range weapons are as good in his hands as they are in the gauntlets of a Foot Knight.

Than there is the other actual range careers.

On one side we have the Waystalker, which features a fast recharging career skill that is able to completely wipe a zerker wave without even thinking about it. Bloodshot makes sniping of specials during combat a breeze, while being able to oneshot every special via a headshot anyway, and when she runs Hagbane, there is little to do for the rest of the team.

BH, the career that actually rewards headshots when picking double shotted, is able to remove CWs in rapid succession from waves, has a great DR skill and a passive that rewards not missing a shot.

Hunstman on the other side rewards spamming shots while in Prowl, has Talents that make him more suitable to being used as a frontliner, cant use range weapon more effectively than a FK/Merc and has the weird stigma of being a “headshot heavy career”.

BH and Waystalker both dont only grant more wiggle room for your aim, they both reward your effort alot more than Huntsmans Talents ever have.

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If its a buff timer like hunter for example, it wouldn’t consume on trash enemies.

Every ranged weapon are as good on any career. Longbow is great on shade and handmaiden, crossbow is great on whc and zealot, etc. All ranged careers do is boost certain ranged weapons. Waystalker with blood shot or serrated shots or as, bh with crit, huntsman boosts his ranged weapons with crit/headshots and his ultimate, rv also boosts his ranged with his ultimate.

So her broken ultimate carries her, agree. Bloodshot is a fine talent. Gets pushed into kurneous reward if she wants to be able to spam 24/7.

Yea agreed, he has a great dmg reduction talent. Double shotted is a headshot skill, like piercing shot. Yea the passive crit is great, and does reward not missing a shot, like huntsman also has.

Huntsman has his ultimate, like rv, like waystalker, like bh. its not more braindead then bh’s/ws or rv their ultimate (except double shotted and piercing shot). you press f and spam, bascically every ranged career.

What are huntsman’s frontline talents? the headshot damage bonus?

How can huntsman not use a ranged weapon more effectively then merc or fk?
He has free shot every third shot, has increased hs dmg for high hp single target, has 30% crit chance, has increased damage on crit shots, has reload speed, and has an ultimate which allows him to spam and do increased damage every like 45 seconds. Looking at this he can use ranged weapons way better then merc or fk.

Also he is a headshot heavy career, if we compare him to other ranged careers. He needs headshots to proc most of his talents, which is where his ‘identity’ comes from.

BH rewards you for hitting shots, sure. Waystalker? She has serrated shots which reward hitting shots? Then she also has attack speed, but that requires headshots.

I haven’t played alot of repeater on huntsman, but for blunderbuss proccing headshots is not an issue, for me atleast.

I don’t really understand your point. If its the fact that huntsman doesnt reward you for headshotting? then it think thats not true, as i tried to show by all his rewards he gets for doing so, while also having way more build variety then other careers imo, and being viable in most of his builds.

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Huntsman is almost perfect, probably the best designed out of the bunch. (RV, WS, HS, BH)

All four ranged weapons can work and make use of any ranged trait thanks to Waste Not, Want Not.
I could run Inspirational Shot if I really wanted to and still have a viable build.

The main gripe I had with Sure Shot was it removed Waste Not, Want Not which took away all build variety, Conservative Shooter became a coaxed choice similar to how Scrounger is on Bounty Hunter.
Also, pretty redundant on Handgun seeing as it could already body shot most enemies.
It just boosted Bluntsman which is already one of the highest DPS builds in the game.

Sure Shot/Free headshots wont make his headshot identity more rewarding, infact it does the opposite by dumbing him down. Buffing the level 20 row and headshot related talents would make headshots more rewarding. He doesn’t need a rework, at most just various small tweaks.

Huntsman is far from weak but some small changes here and there would be nice.
I know Skarrik is the weakest boss but still a decent showcase of his potential damage output.

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90% of that boss dps was me, huntsman bad.

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Keep 'em busy. I’m gonna hit him for his entire health pool.

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Huntsman is a career that is attempted to be built for precision at ranged, but doesn’t give enough reward for using precision I think.

His ult moves away from precision and encourages spam, longbow definitely benefits from spamming, and Bluntsman is easy to proc headshots with little need to actively think of precision.

The handgun in the hands of HS feels no different really than when I’m using it on RV or Merc so handgun is the poor relation here, something that I think should be rewarded for using precision but somehow isn’t.

I really didn’t like the BBB for huntsman. Precision shots with HG and Manbow should be rewarded - and rewarded even more against bosses although actually landing a headshot on a jerking Chaos Spawn with HG is tough.

I am of the opinion though that every weapon doesn’t need to be maximised for every career, and with the ethos of HS being aimed at headshots and precision, I’d reign in Bluntsman a bit somehow as it’s almost getting the headshot buffs as a byproduct of the spread and RNG luck that at least one of the shots would proc. Sorry @anon75893681 but Bluntsman gotta go. /Sarcasm

I think HS isn’t too far away from being great - currently I think he’s good. Boss DPS need a long-hard-lookat, and I’m in favour of the suggestion someone made for dodge distance.

I’d be excited for something like holding a headshot in the crosshairs longer increases the power - some kind of fantasy version of keeping something in the crosshairs until a missile locks on.

You can shoot immediately, but the longer you hold it there is a capped power increase. Hold a CW head in the sights for 1 second will one-shot-kill it at any range at Legend.

Or have a skill where HS can hold his breath(costing a stamina shield) or crouch to have an almost-aimbot headshot meaning fire within 1 foot of the head to get the headshot - basically sacrificing stamina to make headshots easier.

I’m just throwing ideas out here, but anything is preferable to getting auto headshots by strolling around.

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Now thats sounds intriguing

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Sounds a bit hard on the coding part.
A simplier solution would probably be “Aiming with a zoom grants increased headshot damage (increases finese modifier) up to +100%. Bonus ramps up faster during Prowl”.
But this is just brainstorming at the moment.

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Do you think huntsman doesn’t get rewarded for hitting headshots?
Or do you think he doesnt get rewarded enough, or that his rewards are not good rewards and should be changed?

Because getting increased crit chance, reload speed or dmg is pretty rewarding for me.

I also don’t think huntsman should be made too hardcore, what i mean with this is that he shouldn’t need to have 90% hs accuracy for him to be viable. Currently huntsman has a good balance between needing to headshot and also giving alot of space to bodyshot, like alot.
It’s completely ok if you want huntsman to be even more headshot focussed and actually punish bodyshotting, but i think if they did that the community would scream for previous BBB sure shot.

This is why i think increasing reload speed, might make handgun a bit more useable and less punishing when missing a shot, but this might also bring machine gun huntsman back from before, depending on how much they boost it.

Yea i think blunderbuss is a bit too strong, either nerf the weapon or nerf ammo sustain with it. but those would both not be great solutions, so i’m not sure. I can play a cata twitch game, range like 90% of the time (not shooting solo clan rats) and never fall below 75-50% ammo. This is purely with scrounger and free third shot, i could also go shot crafter + hunter. and proccing the crit headshot talent is not an issue and i do aim for it if i really need it, i just go close’ish and get it easily, even from medium range its not that bad.

And i didn’t get lucky on guns blazing votes :stuck_out_tongue: .

Boss dps is fine, if you can headshot. otherwise it falls of alot, but thats also the same a bit for BH double shotted. Double shotted does stagger, so it is easier to achieve. @James posted a clip above, where you can see if a boss stands still and you can headshot, its dmg is insane. (also pots used, but still)(and that was cata).

Hmmm, i don’t know. it would slow down gameplay alot.

I mean this i don’t really like. Its basically free headshots.

Which talents would you replace though? or would you want an added passive?

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I mean, I don’t know if I agree with this. The reload on headshot talent lets you keep up a significantly higher fire rate, which is important for groups of CWs or chain sniping multiple specials. His Ult giving him both power and additional reload speed lets him demolish Chaos Pats and bosses with handgun in a way no other class comes close to. Just because he doesn’t need to headshot every special to be effective doesn’t mean he isn’t rewarded for headshots. You can also use the bonus crit chance on headshot to buff up your melee capabilities since, yes, a crit headshot is rarely necessary for handgun.

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