Havoc and repeating the mistakes of Weaves

Warhammer 40,000: Darktide Gameplay Feedback
1

Hello, 1400hr vermintide player here responding to the Havoc game mode announcement.

Havoc mode as presented is overly complicated, time-gated, and punishing, almost exactly like Weaves, the dead game mode in Vermintide. This is easily preventable. If you want to make a new challenging game mode allowing players to test themselves and each other with the highest difficulty challenges possible, this is not rocket science:

let players create custom matches with modifiers of their choosing that are available to join via lobby and a separate quick play queue, and…

well, that’s actually it. you can make penances for clearing certain numbers or combinations of modifiers, ideally with cosmetics rewards.

This weekly cycle, losing progress with 3 failed attempts, slow climb through 40 games, it sounds as dead on arrival as Weaves. You’re going to have awful modifier combos nobody wants to play, which will kill any momentum you have for players to come back week after week. You will create frustrating experiences where players work extremely hard to clear a level only to have their progress reset when they struggle with the next level. Why? What is the point of all this complexity? Just allow custom matches.

Boss gauntlet is another easy win if you’re making new game modes and can’t figure out bots for solo play yet.

EDIT: the time-gating, seriously? don’t you remember giving up on Seasons in Weaves when it landed with a wet thud on the playerbase? you have all these lessons built up from Vermintide of what works and what doesn’t, and endless player feedback in the forums on these past experiments. why repeat mistakes?

EDIT2: just last week, the combination of just TWO modifiers in Vermintide’s Chaos Wastes weekly made the game virtually unplayable and incited backlash from the playerbase. How does it make sense to randomize mutators and hope for the best?

24 Likes
2

@FatsharkStrawHat please get this through the heads of designers, we really dont need nor want another weaves situation

10 Likes
3

it’s just gonna be empty in two days anyways.

2 Likes
4

everyone is asking for chaos wastes so they give us weaves . with nothing learnt.

i am actually annoyed

8 Likes
5

As if Chaos Waste is not a much bigger ordeal than Weaves or Havok is.

This is also with the consideration that multiple things are always being developed alongside each other

I played Weaves, the system was just not good, too many Weaves, 1 to 160, and the matchmaking was to restricted.

Here they kept it at 40, and have the in game matchmaker/lfg already set.

It’s really is a Weave like system, but it’s really learning for the mistakes of the Weaves.

5 Likes
6

Yup, another Weaves… jeez, FS, when will you start to learn from your previous games. At this point it’s like we are talking to new studio…

2 Likes
7

But once again as op said, its still time gated locked rotations instead of being able to choose whatever modifier combinations you want for seemingly no reason.

FS’s fetish with RNG just continues here.

4 Likes
8

At this point Fatshark Executives/Lead Designers should really go to therapy for RNG-disorder :smiley:

3 Likes
9

I doubt they will let us pick maps. One of the problems they identified in VT2 was that people picked the easiest/shortest map and just ground the crap out of it. I think they said that at one point Screaming Bell accounted for more than 80% of all games played.

They want to get us out of our comfort zones, and, as this game is intended to be challenging, I think that is fine. I wouldn’t be opposed to a parallel system where you can pick any map you please and apply any condition you like, but I gather there is an issue there with server load so it probably won’t be available unless they offer a P2P connection option. Such a system is currently available only via a mod which avoids the server issue but I understand not everyone can access that and some don’t care for the solo play.

1 Like
10

the insane challange of having only hi intensity dogs / lights out missions on the auric board at times

miserably failed to copy drg’s mission selection

6 Likes
11

Part of this is a loadout/crafting system that is either annoyingly long or just shouldn’t exist in the first place. If people were only playing for fun that wouldn’t have been an issue. However that is besides the point.

If that is such an issue just make it so there are no new rewards tied to missions where you choose custom modifiers. Or no rewards if you really want to push it. So there is no incentive to play it outside of just having fun.

But everybody having their own unique Havoc mission won’t cause that issue?

3 Likes
12

Yes. 100%.

Not to mention increased toxicity through the 3 failed attempt rule and possibly griefing.

The solution has long been staring them right in the face but someone doesn’t want to get it into his very very thick and self-absorbed skull: custom matches.

4 Likes
13

I agree mostly with this. I’m happy that they bring back modifiers and add new ones, but they could and should do it in a less weave-y way.
The part about the weekly decay and weekly rewards specifically feels lame to me too. Just one of those “The guys up top said live service weekly is good for retention, so add some live service weekly element to it” things, I reckon

6 Likes
14

Melk Contracts moment

2 Likes
15

Probably that one metric and live service game mechanic obsessed a*hole in the corner chiming in to do his job regarding player retention.

“if we make it decay they HAVE TO come back and play!”

At this point he has to be in every meeting. I can’t explain all the needless RNG and manipulative BS in almost every (new) aspect of the game otherwise.

2 Likes
16

Issues:

  • Having different modifiers per player seems completely pointless. It serves no purpose, but causes unnecessary problems: it makes regular matchmaking impossible and creates an arbitrary need for premades/party finder.
  • Dependency on premades/party finder will immediately make the gamemode less popular.
  • System might not encourage players to keep playing it for anything outside of difficulty. People might not even bother to play the 1 mission per week that they need in order to prevent rank decay. (this could also be a good thing, because it might increase the ratio of decently skilled players who are there for the difficulty, not for the ressource rewards)
  • “Rank hopping” is encouraged and removes the entire progression as soon as people start hosting diff ~40 lobbies (Immediately join hosted diff 40 missions until you get carried through one. You will have the same progress as someone who progressed through all 40 missions one by one.).
  • Due to the ability to join lobbies of any mission difficulty, there is no built in learning curve and gatekeeping. This will result in low skilled players infesting high diff lobbies, unless players gatekeep their lobbies with “proof of skill” via penance cosmetics. Low rank players have nothing to lose anyway and they will drag down everyone else.
  • If failing 3 times in a row reduces the player’s rank by 1, people would be encouraged to quit out of missions, unless quitting in any way is also counted as failing.
  • If quitting out is counted as failing, those who are trying to progress properly without taking shortcuts, would be punished every time they match with bad players who are trying to jump up to high ranks immediately. It would be reasonable to expect players to be very picky, when it comes to choosing teammates to start the mission with.

Possible solution:

  • third page on mission board: Standard, Auric, Havoc
  • 5 mission difficulties (all damnation+) with a few fast rotating options each (no individual modifiers per player)
  • regular matchmaking is available (private lobbies and party finder are optional)
  • progression system with 50 ranks (3 stars/chevrons/whatever per rank)
  • each of the 5 diff is expected to be played for 10 ranks
  • successful missions grant stars, while fails lose you stars
  • players must climb ranks in oder to gain access to higher difficulties (for public lobbies)
  • in private lobbies, you can play any difficulty independent of rank (+3/-1 stars for win/loss when playing difficulties above rank)
  • if no mission with an outcome of at least +1 star has been completed within a week, lose 1 star upon weekly reset
  • any wins/losses on the standard/auric playlist have no effect on havoc ranks

Ranks 0-9:

  • access is limited to damnation+1: +3 stars on win, -1 star on loss

Ranks 10-19:

  • gain access to damn+2: +3 stars on win, -1 star on loss
  • when playing damn+1: +1 star on win, -1 star on loss

Ranks 20-29:

  • gain access to damn+3: +3 stars on win, -1 star on loss
  • when playing damn+2: +1 star on win, -1 star on loss
  • when playing any diff below: -1 star on loss

Ranks 30-39

  • gain access to damn+4: +3 stars on win, -1 star on loss
  • when playing damn+3: +1 star on win, -1 star on loss
  • when playing any diff below: -1 star on loss

Ranks 40-44

  • gain access to damn+5: +3 stars on win, -1 star on loss
  • when playing damn+4: +1 star on win, -1 star on loss
  • when playing any diff below: -1 star on loss

Ranks 45-48

  • gain access to damn+5: +2 stars on win, -1 star on loss
  • when playing any diff below: -1 star on loss

Ranks 49-50 (Unlock big boy title or something upon reaching rank 50 for the first time.)

  • damn+5: +1 star on win, -1 star on loss
  • when playing any diff below: -1 star on loss

(alternatively: 10 difficulties instead of 5, in which case the difficulties would be unlocked every 5 ranks, not every 10)

17

At least they’re not making you start your item progression from scratch. But overall, Havok doesn’t sound good.

18

to me sounds like a good mode,
minus the annoying conditions like:

lights out
tox gas
fog

those in particular usually just unfun rather than challenging.
but overall seems a good game mode, and looking forward to it.

best is to wait and see how the game mode is.
i also think people are too way impatient and just compare it to weaves when isnt really the same thing.

1 Like
19

Do NOT give them ideas, this havoc sounds bad enough already

5 Likes
20

If the damnation+ players are the ones that use party finder and buy cosmetics, it might be a financial success, but it’s probably DOA otherwise. Different mutators for people that are working together makes sense if they are really focusing on making people earn their ranks instead of just cycle maps to get more preferable mutators, but it is clearly an anti-fun/anti-teamwork/“how can we limit player agency” decision. More RNG.

They are trying to make a hardcore mode instead of spending their precious time elsewhere.

Break the mutator locks? How about the map selection locks?

3 Likes