Has anyone at fatshark ever considered an achievement DLC?

I know about you, but I actually don’t care that anyone can set up arbitrary conditions to succeed at challenges. And when challenges are done wrong, such as outcast engineer, it actually massively spoils the fun I can have on the class. If they didn’t add challenges, I probably wouldn’t care that much. They’re fun niche things and when employed as a tutorial, are actually pretty good. But when the challenges are to use things in unnatural ways (E.G. 6 headshots in a row, with it being designed as TWENTY in a row) then it ruins the game.

SotT was perfect. The challenges didn’t lock the majority of cosmetics, so I could look how I wanted right from the start, but I still got a nifty border to show off for completing challenges.

Because it isn’t actually inconsistent. You’re comparing content that isn’t sold separately to content that is. You don’t need to do a bunch of grinding to unlock the new careers either, nor do you need to just spam boxes in hopes of getting one of the new weapons. DLC content being treated differently to base game content is the standard, it’s not outside the norm. The grail knight skins are not unlocked the same way as the base game skins, nor are the engi ones.

Particularly when talking about weapon skins, which absolutely aren’t locked behind needing to do a bunch of random things with the gear before you’re allowed to use it. That’s exclusively a DLC thing, normally you just have to hope you’ll get one from a box.

This is just silly wordgames, it’s a cosmetic upgrade that sells literally nothing but cosmetics.

Just to be clear on how to approach this post: you do realize that you don’t actually need to do any of those, don’t you?

Frankly, I feel like you’re just arguing for the sake of argument here. I mean, can the DLC description be any more precise and clear? Who cares what anyone thinks what the DLC should provide, if there is a clear description of the product that you read before buying.

We can argue whether it is a good decision to distribute content that way, but not about wording - there is nothing silly about it. And as for the decision on FS’s part, it’s not worth arguing about IMO because none of us can influence them anyway. Like/dislike level discussions are pointless.

Also I keep hearing about some kind of standards (of game development?) , but I’ve yet to lay my hands on one. I’d be curious to peruse the code quality section :sweat_smile:

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Yes, DLC is something a little different from base game, but that doesn’t mean it is a completely different thing that can’t be compared in consistency at all. A career is a career. If the DLC career had more or fewer talent rows you could still call it an inconsistency with the rest of the careers. So if, for example, the new career doesn’t need to earn its black armor some way like all other classes it is still an inconsistency. And anyways: Simply because there is one thing different with DLC careers doesn’t mean everything else has to be as well.

And the difference between unlocking weapon illusions by pulling them from chests you need to earn in game vs. getting them by doing a challenge is still a lot smaller than having to pull them from chests vs. getting them automatically without doing anything. (Whether chests or challenges is a better way is just a matter of taste and not really relevant here.)

I honestly think that you are the one doing wordgames there. By argueing how cosmetics should be distributed by how you interpret the name of the DLC.

Anyways, this discussion isn’t really going anywhere anymore, and I feel like I’m starting to repeat myself.

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i agree this argument is pretty pointless, because we’re clearly not going to agree and I don’t really think the standards being used are at all reasonable (and I think the end point is that no grind for cosmetics turn off the least amount of customers, regardless of personal taste), but in no way am I doing word games there lol. Going “Uh actually it’s not a cosmetic DLC it’s a challenge DLC with reward cosmetics :^)” is not at all a reasonable argument.

It is literally called “Grail Knight - Cosmetic Upgrade”, with all of the content being cosmetics. How they unlock has nothing do with what the DLC is, just how accessible the content within is. Hell, you don’t even need the DLC to do the challenges, just to access the rewards.

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If you want the reward then yes, you have to do them. And the act of knowing they exist but are just out of reach actively harms my enjoyment of the game.

Note: I did eventually finish it, but that doesn’t make the experience any better.

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The problem on Outcast Engineer is not that the cosmetics were locked behind challenges, it is that the challenges were too challenging.
The Grail knight’s challenges were fun to do, hell most of OE’s challenges were too.

If they had sold the career for 8€ without ever having any mention of “cosmetics upgrade”, would you have complained in any way about having to unlock them ?
What they did is give people who don’t want to pay 8€ for tens of hours of gameplay and who don’t give a damn about a shiny sword to only pay 3,50€ ; and split the core gameplay from the cosmetic aspect of it, and this is how they should have carried on doing.
But then entitled, impatient snowflakes like you with no sense of work/reward went and gave terrible reviews on steam cause “OMG I PAY FOR SHINY SWORD Y U NO GIV Y I HAZ TO WORK FOR IT 0/10 UNACCEPTABLE”, and now Fatshark, to their great, great shame, caved in. Look at Forgotten relics and SotT reviews compared to GK and Engi, and you’ll know why the industry, driven by player opinion, is going downhill. You sacrifice quality game design for whoring for good reviews, and end up with a bad, broken-ass game.

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Yes

lmao, what? are you high?

also if we’re doing the review things, engi is sitting at mixed (58% positive), GK is at mixed (66% positive), while SoTT is at very positive (83% positive) and forgotten relics is at mostly positive (78% positive). Not really sure what point you’re making there. You think people liking content more is bad?

This exactly proves my point. So you’re complaining about all cosmetics in the game. Weave frames are locked behind challenges, black and gold outfits are locked behind challenges, BtU and SoB weapons and cosmetics are locked behind challenges ; all that to you is bad ? You should be given everything right from the start ? And level 35, and also every weapon and every illusion I guess ? And also all achievement frames, like fortune of war. Hell, why do you even have to unlock the map, eh ?

People are liking the content for the wrong reasons. OE and GK have those reviews because of butthurt people like you complaining about the cosmetics, where there is nothing wrong with the way FS implemented them. They are the exact same as the rest of the content in the game.
Also, SotT is broken beyond reality, so are the forgotten relics.

I agree with this :

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I’ve been around here long enough to think you’re better than making posts like this.

It’s always been money that causes that decline, if you can sell more of a thing by making it boring generic mass appeal, that’s where many games went and why so many great concepts from years back never really lived up to expectations.
iirc it was also originally less clear from the original “cosmetic upgrade” descriptions that you were buying something that required completing challenges to access.

I didn’t buy either when they launched as I only came back to playing the game just before Chaos Wastes launched after taking a year or so off. So I knew what to expect when I picked them up in a sale after CW released and I wanted to throw FS some extra shillings. I was also then disappointed by the SotT pack not having decent challenge rewards, but I was also disappointed that most of her cosmetics weren’t that great either (back to the usual “hood doesn’t match armour” that was solved on handmaiden but still a problem for many others, and the staff has WAYYYYY TOOO MUCH blue/purple for my taste).

Looking at just how bad the negative reviews are for the Outcast Engineer vs Grail knight, it would seem difficulty did play some part in it.
I personally didn’t mind the GK challenges (although 100 missions for the helm… really? I just don’t enjoy GK enough for that), yet the OE even many that I have done felt like torture to complete and every time I look at some of the others it makes me consider uninstalling the game to save me from myself.

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the cosmetic system in this game is grindy and awful, why wouldn’t I complain about it? People have been complaining about it for years now lol. I’d complain about them for different reasons, but something going from one bad system to another bad system doesn’t actually make it good.

Yeah, objective proof that people prefer the content to not be locked behind both money and challenges is a great argument against me saying content shouldn’t be locked behind money and challenges, you got me.

MWP and GK have been strong af for a long, long time now, don’t kid yourself.

I think this thread has massively strayed from the original post

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Replacing RNG Grind by guaranteed cosmetics that you know exactly how to get is “replacing a bad system by another bad system” ? I agree that grinding for reds is tedious and does not feel rewarding, but I also think that the cosmetics system tied to achievements is actually good design.
Just giving all cosmetics away for no reason, on the other hand, is terrible.

When did I say they weren’t ? I actually said this :


Well the original post was answered by the third one.

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a DLC for a DLC still feels like a bad faith business practice.
Also iirc, if you didn’t buy the cosmetic upgrade you got constant in-game “you have challenges to claim, please swipe your credit card to claim them” if you owned the career but not the cosmetic upgrade and had completed some of the challenges. Not sure if that was for everyone or just a rare bug my friend had.


I’ve said elsewhere I personally feel they should have just released a premium skin for the new class alongside it. It’s straight forward and people know what they’re getting and would be far less controversial.
The issue is they seem to feel stuck on the trajectory they’ve set for themselves with how many weapon/armour variations are provided.
I’d much rather one armour set that’s great and has a matching helm, rather than 4 that are “meh” and don’t have a matching helm. (and don’t need challenges to unlock)


Back to your point on challenges and cosmetic regards in the base game though, are literally any other cosmetics locked behind arbitrary obnoxious challenges? The black armour sets are all just base Helmgart on legend, so “play the game normally.” Other than frames (which are fine/great for challenge rewards IMO) there’s no other instance of cosmetic rewards being tied to these kinds of challenges at all.

when you said the later DLCs were being reviewed well because they were so strong, as if both OE and GK didn’t include very strong options in their release.

It’s cool if you think that, but like you brought up, reviews don’t support that. I very much doubt FS just decided to change it for no reason.

Look at it the other way : they intended to release GK as an 8$ premium career, and thought that some people would be more interested in just the career and perhaps couldn’t afford 8$ for a character and decided to offer just that at a reduced price.

Yeah that’s a major f*ck-up.

Well I’d add the BtU and SoB weapons skins (kill 1000 enemies and defeat all lords in Legend with them), but then again the fact that they added class cosmetics via challenges not only is a million times better than adding them to the random pool of cosmetics you could get from chests ; but it also actually is good design.

I like how they introduced the premium hats, and the premium skins : I’m not against buying cosmetics ; but I like the idea of a frame or a black and gold skin to mean something.

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Apart from the 100 missions hat challenge (which I don’t like in general because a. 100 missions is a lot of irl time on a single character, imo it should be more like 50 and b. weaves and wastes expeditions don’t count towards them at all, even at a reduced rate) the GK cosmetic DLC challenges were pretty good, if easy. Challenges like interrupt Deathrattler’s Charge with Blessed Blade and so on were interesting, as was the Riposte one (done easily vs Rat Ogres, although I’m not such a fan of final hit challenges but at least with GK you could use your ult to guarantee it).

OE had many stupid ones that didn’t fit at all however. I got most of them before they got nerfed and my opinion was not improved after getting them, namely get x headshots in a row with a weapon that has windup and some spread, and the alt fire challenge to land most of your ammunition on monsters without missing in a fire mode that is built around being inaccurate and spammy. Those challenges didn’t fit the weapon mechanics whatsoever and it was annoying the latter had a skin locked behind it.

The crank gun challenges were decent, even if the fire for 50s one encouraged cheese via Twitch or the Gutter Runner’s Stash as opposed to anything else (on Cata you can do it if you get the right series of specials using the right column talent, but not if your teammates kill them all first). The main bright side to the OE cosmetic DLC was the hat took a mere 25 missions (even at 50 it would have been okay, I’m not complaining though lol).

Basically, in future: if the cosmetic challenges are done like GK’s (apart from the 100 hat runs) I’ll buy them, if they’re done like OE’s I won’t.

SotT challenges are pretty good if unrewarding, they for the most part fit the class and weapons this time unlike the MWP challenges. My one big disappointment is the masks on the headgear don’t fit anything other than the green character skins, that part honestly sucks hardest. Some way to get mask recolour variants would be good (I still wish hats could get recoloured automatically in this game, red FK and IB armours especially have this problem).

A possible alternative solution to rewarding people for the challenges would imo be to up the shilling amounts you get. Assuming FS keep adding cosmetics to the Emporium in future, for old and new careers, they could make it the cosmetics DLC challenges give 50 shillings each or so, rather than the paltry 10 you get now. That way, players get some starting cosmetics for the new career when they buy the cosmetic DLC, as they did for SotT, but at the same time they get a faster (non weekly-gated) way to earn future headgear and skins from the Emporium by doing class specific challenges.

After all, a skin is worth anywhere from 50 shillings (purples) to several hundred or even near a thousand shillings on the Emporium depending on what it is (with a handful being worth 1.5k-2k). 10 is just pitiful, especially for a difficult or long challenge, 50 is at least equivalent to the low end as it would be what the purple illusions are priced if you buy them via the Emporium.

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I didn’t like those ones. 1k kills was fine, takes 5 missions absolute tops on Legend+ per weapon, only really a ‘challenge’ with Throwing Axes, but killing the same 4 bosses again and again on different weapons lost its luster hard after the second. I wish they’d been more targeted, e.g. billhook could have been interrupt x enemies attacking team members, trollhammer could be e.g. prevent a boss from landing any attacks or ledge 5 bosses, cog hammer could’ve had one like e.g. stagger and then decapitate x elites, griffonfoot could be score x triple kills with shotgun blasts, spear n shield land x headshots using the special attack, etcetera.

Thinking about it now, weapon challenges are not easy to be creative with - especially with more simplistic weapons, I can understand why FS would find it difficult too, but imo it’d be worth putting in the time brainstorming for them. For MWP I would’ve made the alt fire challenge kill e.g. 15 elites with MWP altfire in 30s. Something like that. Basically, play into how the firing mode works.

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Those are still pretty much just “play the game normally” with the red skins limited to something on Legend difficulty.

It certainly feels like the nature of the challenges accounts for a LOT of the negativity around the cosmetic upgrades, with the principle of it being another chunk.

And I don’t disagree, but it should mean something consistent and in keeping with the base game. All previous cosmetics of that nature were unlocked by “normal gameplay” at legend difficulty. I also don’t think those specific things should be behind a further paywall. It’s not like they were behind the collector’s edition upgrade for the base game or anything like that. I’ve no issue with paying for cosmetics, and I wasn’t motivated to leave a negative review, but I still think having a cosmetic upgrade that locks these kinds of cosmetics that have a direct correlation to cosmetics that were part of the base game (as well as BtU) is at the very least contentious and likely to rub a lot of players up the wrong way, which it did.

I assume this is the GK equivalent to the black skin, and I’ve literally never attempted it, and likely never will:


It’s not difficult, it doesn’t even require legend difficulty, but every attempt is tedious, especially as I’d have 3 bots to deal with, its not like the base game even has a true solo mode to better facilitate these personal challenges.
Apparently, I managed all the OE armour challenges, so I’ve no idea which would have correlated to “complete everything on legend” but I’m pretty sure it was similarly obnoxious and can be made more difficult by other players/bots and likely without a difficulty level required. They’re not representative of skill with the class, just how much effort players have put into doing stupid crap. While having paid for the privilege of doing said crap.

If they didn’t split them, it wouldn’t have needed to be $8 as I’d imagine projected sales would have made $6 just as viable. But we’re splitting hairs here.
The base career being a genuine low-cost microtransaction is a good business decision imo.
I guess coming from Path of Exile, the costs here just don’t phase me, certainly better than paying $40 for an armour set that clips poorly with itself that the trailer didn’t show.

£3 for a new career is low enough that anyone playing the game and enjoying it can probably find it if they want a new way to play, and it can bring people back to the game.

How they choose to target people with more money to spare while still making those players feel like they got value for their money… that still feels like it’s a work in progress, and unlike Path of Exile, it’s not a free-to-play game, so tolerance for absurd cosmetic prices is going to be less forgiving.

I’ll not disagree with that, I’ve hated pure RNG systems since the 90s and I still think it’s a load of umgak in the vast majority of game systems that use it. The system and the people that care a bit too much about getting Emperor’s Vaults on Legend runs probably accounts for a chunk of the toxicity that people see complaints about. Those toxic players are still to blame for their actions, but the underlying system that drives them is making the situation worse, they’re like hundreds of hours of grinding in while chasing just 1-2 specific red illusions that never drop.

Also, this entire discussion reminds me of the latest Vsauce video on reasoning, plenty of people here seem likely bored enough to maybe watch it, considering that we’re splitting hairs over DLC cosmetic challenges, so here’s a link: Youtube - Vsauce - The Future Of Reasoning

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