i don’t care about reviews, i’d just really love to hear fs’ reasoning behind why the crafting is the way it is lol
i could understand if this was some free to play trash, but it’s not. there’s no reason to have the rng play such a huge role in loadouts unless you’ve got some kind of loot crate or paid element going on.
There actually is: it gives a carrot to chase.
It might be infuriating on its own but it’s a basic mechanic of the looter genre.
Not to mention the team play is far and beyond more important than perfect weapons.
I would just like to have a better interface instead of this console-based one.
Based on the pre-release crafting blog, the blessings blog, the crafting release blog with the original refine screen, I think they kept on running out of time, so they banged out an incomplete, barely designed, slapdash amalgamation of an itemisation system to maximise retention as much as possible for the time being (to help keep monetisation going as long as it can) and, I hope, to give them enough time to push something that is a bit less of a placeholder. That’s me being charitable.
Otherwise, someone in the upper echelons of management consumed too many ‘making players payers’ presentations and articles and tried to implement all those tricks, but someone else, whether out of incompetence or malicious compliance, is only half-implementing those systems, but unfortunately only getting the frustration parts into all of the out-of-mission systems. That’s the less charitable but still charitable version.
The completely uncharitable version is that everyone is following the F2P-like system mandate, there is no communication between teams, and they are just throwing in all the systems together with no real attempt to actually tune or integrate the parts properly for a good player experience. And still ran out of time.
The teams handling the mission gameplay and elements are just doing their own thing.
You can have a carrot to chase that doesn’t suck. There is no need for this RNG nonsense. Looter shooters only work if you have a good way to get rid of all of your junk. Borderlands is terrible at this, Diablo IV is ok. Both have a mechanic that people seem to like where you just amass far too many guns and spend time on comparing stats. It’s just dull and boring. Darktide has no easy way to just get rid of all of your junk. My bags are full of mats and weapons that I just never look at because the system is so bad.
Grinding for gear is fine, and it’s also fine that it takes time, but a better system would have this be more predictable.
Ok, so it’s not really the system you have a problem with, it’s the user interface.
I think the issue is it’s all stick and very little carrot, so it’s not achieving it’s purpose. Instead of the cart moving forward, the horse bit the reigns and ran off, leaving you to pull the wagon yourself.
Welcome #427 to the REAL warband.
I think a more elaborated dissertation would be welcome.
What is that makes you feel this way? the fact that you can’t refine your gear but you have to rely on randomness?
The fact that perfect gear is astronomically unachievable?
Or that the interface to check, evaluate, select, change, and compare your gear is so badly implemented for a PC game?
I invite you to check my sources^
Bust mostly all of the above. I have a lot of “good enough” weapons that are compromises that trying to “upgrade” my weapons, compared to side grading them, is practically impossible. It’s an awful experience and I am pretty sure it does the opposite of player retention. Player loss and turnover instead. Just causes frustration vs excitement.
Yeah, that thread is useless.
It might be some kind of sword you dangle on the devs’ heads, but it means nothing for other people because it’s a whole lot of everything which equates to a whole lot of nothing.
The sidegrade is kind of the game, though.
I’ve been playing for less than a month and I have 5 level 30 characters with good enough gear to play auric.
I can refine that gear, and I can try different things, but I do it sporadicly: I know that drying up all my resources to try and get one single perfect weapon is useless. Not only because of RNG, but also because it makes little to no difference in the game.
There’s always this pull and push with players between “the game is too easy” and “I want to be more powerful” that puts the devs in this awkward position of having to limit power and having to give it out, and there will always be players with the solution in hand telling the devs they’re stupid for not doing as they’re told.
I’ve seen this for the last 20 years, it’s not a new occurrence.
They’ll try a different approach and it will still be criticized, but the impossibility of getting perfect gear will always be there or there won’t be any reason for players to use the resources they’re given.
It’s still frustrating to be unable to do anything to line up the RNG to make something even passably useful whether it’s a sidegrade, upgrade, something new. Being lucky is a pretty ugly way to lock behind content and tools in the game that I paid for. Being timegated isn’t the issue, being unreliably timegated with absolutely no agency or progress to work towards something is.
A main crux regarding crafting and itemisation is that Fatshark have no confidence in their own game loop either, they have said they made a game for ~100 hours in Vermintide 2 and can’t fathom why people play it for 1000+. Darktide proves they still don’t know, either that or they were mandated to deliberately put in this placeholder of a retention system that actively sucks away player satisfaction regardless.
When “one of the pillars of gameplay” is being at best ignored, or at worst constantly derided, I’d rather they fix it or remove it because it spoils whatever I try to do when doing anything regarding itemisation.
“Good enough for me” is a horrible argument to use against calls for improvement, especially since what’s “good” or “enough” for someone is subjective and due to the nature of the layered RNG, people can have completely different experiences with the system.
I disagree. It’s mainly to highlight a few things:
1.) Anecdotal subjective experiences of players
2.) Well thought out arguments
3.) Contradictions in Fatshark own statements and goals (see interview and crafting blog)
4.) Information/reviews from content creators
5.) Polls
6.) To show a sense of popularity of criticism within the forums exclusively
7.) A little fun sense of comraderie to try and ease the pain.
I play auric all the time. Playing auric isn’t the goal. The goal, much like the talent tree, is to tinker and experiment. To test out different interactions of blessings and breakpoints with perks. To have your weapons fit the roles you want them to fit.
This is a double sided sword. If it makes no difference and doesn’t change anything, then remove the locks, as there’s simply no reason to hold players back. If it DOES matter and has a material result then people are fully justified in the absurdity of being presented with a system in which it SEEMS like you have a chance, when in fact you have essentially none with how awful the odds are stacked against you.
Breakpoints exist. A t3 to a T4 perk could be all you need to get that one shot on a rager’s headshot on your revolver.
That is a separate issue. Things should be balanced but a perfect 550 weapon is POSSIBLE to be obtained. If you state it’s mechanically superior and objectively better than other weapons, then the game SHOULD be balanced around it, because it can exist (don’t want the game too easy and other players to feel someone has an unfair advantage simply because RNGesus smiled on them that day). But this creates an issue of the game being balanced for 550 weapons which causes a downstream effect and those same blessings, perks, and weapons to be nerfed by “imperfect” weapons. Therefore, the fairest and best solution is to balance the game, and its difficulties with all combinations and permutations in mind. And players should have a reasonable way with specific investment in time to accomplish those goals.
Forced sidegrades are not fun for players. Give them meaningful choices (Hordes, flak, carapace, crit chance, etc.) But LET them pick and have some route to get what they actually want one day.
Also the mental difference between, “having the best it can be,” and “making do with what you get,” can have a pretty big effect on player satisfaction too.
You don’t work towards anything item-wise in Darktide, and the constant, “making do,” with no goal in sight starts rankling more and more with every attempt.
You can already do it with sidegrades.
No, holding players back is the backbone of these games to give them something to strive for.
How long do you think it will take to find the best combinations and have the whole playerbase run with all the same gear?
It’s not, a perfect weapon is still a sidegrade.
But seeing those missing percentages and that single affix missing is what gives you the will to spend more materials.
The backbone of these games is the core gameplay, not frustrating people in not getting statistically improbable weapon combinations. Items that can even at best be 80% of what they can be. There are issues all over their itemisation that isn’t just the RNG that impact player satisfaction, even if you don’t consciously acknowledge them.
No. You can frustratingly get not really what you wanted and throw it away because you know the sidegrade of more sprint speed isn’t what your are looking for, nor more pox walker damage.
I disagree. It’s the great gameplay loop. And even if you want to throw sticks in front of players there’s better deterministic systems that do it (or none at all)
Helldivers (and likely the sequel)
DRG
Vermintide 2 (red items/weapons and athanor)
Remnant from the ashes and Remnant 2
Left 4 dead series (that inspired the “tide” series)
Payday 2
Elite Dangerous
Shadow warrior 2
Etc. So many cooperative shooter games have better gear/item progression. DRG it would take you a lot of hours to get all the overclocks. Helldivers take a long time to get all those research points. Vermintide 2 a lot of pain to get those reds. But once you do, you reach a point where you’re free to customize what you want. NO SUCH OPTION EXISTS FOR DARKTIDE. And this is AWFUL.
Do you think the game and it’s longevity and retention would be greatly enhanced that instead of picking the talents you want on your reject, you get to randomly get different classes and talents from “recruits” from the prison, and HOPE they have the talents you’re looking for? That being able to pick and choose your talents means people are getting bored of it? Despite the huge surge in player numbers on steam alone.
Perfect weapons are “possible”. A 380 weapon with stats you want, and 2 T4 perks and 2 T4 blessings that you want. It’s so unlikely you shouldn’t pursue it to save your sanity. But someone could get it. Maybe at the 40 hour mark. Maybe at the 1000 hour mark. That’s the issue with RNG. This removes my will to spend. I just have weapons with T3’s, less than ideal stats, or missing blessings entirely I have been hunting. It just sucks so bad I can’t be bothered to try anymore and just play the game and pretend it doesn’t exist for the most part.
As long as people don’t stop pretending that crafting isn’t part of core gameplay while evaluating the game, little will change.
Crafting is a “central pillar” of Darktide while the main draw of the game is and should be the in-mission gameplay, but one being good doesn’t excuse the other from being a satisfaction Dyson.
Look, I understand your argument, it’s what I’ve been thinking for years until I realized tyhat frustration was exactly what was keeping me playing.
Do you really think slot machines are so addicting because they give you what you want?
In terms uf end-user it’s kind of a hellscape, in terms of business it’s exactly what you want.
No, it’s not.
Do you really think you’d still be playing once you cleared the game 100 times if there were no rewards and no crappy crafting?
You’d say “ok, I’ve done this enough” and move on.
This keeps you engaged, even if through frustration.
Of the list of games you put I have played maybe half, and I don’t really remember the V2 crafting system but I can tell you I’ve already played DT almost 300 hours compared to the 230 of V2.
Yeah, that’s what I said.
I just added that a perfect weapon is just a sidegrade that scratches your itch just for a couple of runs until you get a new itch to scratch and start trying to get another “perfect” weapon.
It’s not about the stats, it’s about the want.
That’s not everyone though. For some, it is about the stats, it is about having a weapon be the best it can be that compliments building the best habits when playing knowing that it isn’t the weapon that could be the flaw in their playstyle. I’ve personally only played DT a fraction of the 1000 or so hours I’ve played VT2, a game where itemisation ends about 200 or so hours in.
Sure, there are people who give up as as there is no statistically improbable thing to chase, but to think that’s all there is to it completely misses the point of all the 'tide games, which unfortunately Fatshark has, yet again. The improbable chase has probably ironically chased more people away than people it has retained.