First I’m not sure I understand what this mechanic is supposed to achieve. (In either verms 1 or 2 to be honest.)
Is it supposed to make a player more reluctant to go where someone is shooting?
Is it supposed to make a player more reluctant to shoot where another player is standing?
Is it supposed to make ranged combat less useful?
All of the above?
Right now when I play a melee character it can be a frustrating mechanic I have no control over, and when I play a ranged character I don’t particularly care about it. (Oh I try not to shoot my friends, but if you come between me and the SV head I’m lining up you’re getting shot.)
The damage is low, usually insignificant unless your health is also low.
You can be killed (or kill your friend) if you’re running in the same general location, (As you can shoot each other without being aware that they are there, and it’s not even that precise due latency.)
The shooter, is never put at any disadvantage for shooting another player.
Friendly fire can not be blocked, so a character on their last white health spends more time worrying about their friends than the rats, even more frustrating is when you try to kill a rat for some temp health and your buddy, (trying to save you from the solo rat,) kills you.
The player taking the FF has no way mitigate it, they most often don’t even know it’s about to occur.
Shooters tend to, on the whole, shoot through/into their friends. while when you’re playing melee you’re doing your best not to get shot. (Which is one of the reasons I think people are complaining about the “ranged combat meta” right now.)
Personally I’d like to see the FF shooters have some penalty too, like being de-buffed of trait and talent effects for a short duration, while still applying the current FF damage, giving the shooter a reason to learn care, and keeping the desire not to run into that beam beam staff or conflag staff area.
Ranald should give a big middle finger to the person with most FF ( past a certain treshold of course, some mistakes are bound to happen ) and take away a bunch of loot bar progress at the end.
Make the game more challenging. Being able to shoot through allies is one of several things that makes recruit/veteran so much easier.
Make the players more mindful of their positioning. Make them more aware of their surroundings.
No. It’s only less useful if your team is playing like a group of Helen Kellers.
That’s the intent, as players used to be able to gib each other. Players are supposed to be punished for shooting allies, but not to an extreme.
This further enforces awareness.
If they kill their allies or help to do so, then the disadvantage is less comrades or a damaged comrade. This decreases their chances of a successful game.
That’s partly the point.
Players who frequently hit allies are bad at ranged and shouldn’t be using a ranged weapon.
So the concept of friendly fire tends to be a mystery to a number of people. It’s merely a way to further challenge players, making the game more difficult and adding another mechanic for them to be aware of. You could argue realism, but I don’t think that’s a great point to argue.
Players who use range should be just as aware as the players in front meleeing. Cooperation is key and helps improve the flow of the game. If you’re melee:
Try to stick to one side/wall while the players using range stick to the opposite side.
Crouch so the ranging players have an easier time shooting over you.
Avoid moving too much from side to side to make it easier for ranged players to avoid hitting you.
Consider your allies’ ranged weapons and how they intend to use them. If they’re going to snipe ambient storm vermin, for example, you may want to expect that behavior and play accordingly. Such as avoiding aggro of the ambient enemy to make it easier for the enemy to be head-shotted.
Keep a boss still by “dancing” forward and backwards(baiting their attacks), so your ranged allies can be more accurate with their shots and increase damage output. Obviously the type of boss will change what you have to do to keep them still.
Check around you to get a read on where you are positioned relative to your allies. If you are inside an ally, pause your movement for a moment so you are no longer inside them and are visible. In any and every game, your positioning is important regardless of whether you are meleeing or ranging.
If you’re ranging:
Try to stick to one side/wall while the players using melee stick to the opposite side.
Jump and shoot or position yourself on higher ground to decrease the chance of hitting allies and give yourself a better angle at which to hit enemies.
If your allies are forced to move side to side to fight hordes, carefully consider your shots or don’t shoot at all. Joining in the melee fray may be the best course of action to take because if they’re good enough, the only damage they’re going to take is from you potentially hitting them.
Thinning hordes before they meet your team will make it easier to fight them in melee.
If your ranged weapon permits, prioritize targets that make it difficult for your allies to fight in melee. This includes armor, shields, and specials. Your allies should be able to combat hordes well enough for you to be able to eliminate the more oppressive and dangerous targets.
Avoid trying to shoot every last ambient mob. If your ally is going to cut a random marauder or couple clan rats down, let them. Accidentally hitting an ally because you’re greedy for fodder mobs is an asinine reason to have hit them.
Be aware of mobs looking to attack your allies if they’re keeping the boss aggro’d for you. The boss isn’t going any where. Prioritize specials or other mobs that will pose a threat to the ally with boss aggro. When they can safely and reliably dance with the boss, mow that big lug down.
Check around yourself to see where your allies are positioned. Make sure no one is inside you. Checking how far back your allies are will give you better judgement as to how long you can be slow/immobile when ranging before an ally is upon you.
Friendly fire greatly increases challenge and heavily enforces comradery and awareness.
I think they should scrap FF altogether. It is annoying and a lot of the time it is very difficult to avoid hitting other players when they for example walk directly into your line of fire. I know people will say that you have to be more aware of your positioning but I feel like it would be a lot more enjoyable to not have to worry about getting shot by your teammates. But I’m sure others like FF. Just my opinion.
Also, I play legend so please do not tell me to go play veteran/recruit if I don’t want FF. Thanks trolls.
I’m not sure how you can stop this with the current mechanic, players who should not, do and suffer no penalties.
I’m not mystified about having it, nor am I all that concerned about wearing it in most cases.
I believe on Champion/legend it needs to be there, (I’d happily play with more damage from it, on all levels of the game.) but I really think that the major penalties should not fall on the targets of it.
You could/can argue that the firer indirectly hurts their chances of completing a mission by harming their teammates, and they do, but the reality seems to be that the effect on the firer is almost non existent, the melee character suffers several penalties though, your screen shows a hit from out of view, and you take unblock-able damage.
To answer in kind: (this is not dismissing your advice, it’s all correct, but it does not work particularly well in this game, which is why I don’t particularly like the mechanic as it stands.)
For melee characters this is hard, no single weapon allows you to stand still and tackle a horde, and some weapons demand that you skirt the foe. Rapiers and daggers spring to mind. Standing on one side of a corridor vs a horde is suicide for a couple of characters.
Crouching slows movement, so dodging requires that you do not crouch, as several of the melee characters rely on dodging this terrible to attempt even if a tank is swinging a 2h hammer right where you are standing.
I’m going to reiterate the first two points for this one.
Ranged characters, specifically the mage, tend to target groups then move to singles, regardless of what the melee characters are doing, from their perspective why are you engaging an enemy they can deal with, I’ve seen this from both sides when I was playing ranged and when I was not. The temptation to shoot every target is high. From the melee perspective, you’re getting the lone rat they are ignoring, and then suddenly they are not.
Many of the new bosses can not be kept still, and to be honest they are tall so a ranged player shooting at the head, or near it is not really causing any issues, boss fights are not usually where FF, (aside from bombs) becomes an issue. (and usually a bomb in a boss fight is to free a character being grappled in some way)
I’m going out on a limb here I don’t think its the non shooters responsibility to ensure that they are not inside the shooter, often you don’t even know its occurring until you’ve taken several shots. the character I most notice this kind of issue with is actually the dwarf with the drakefire pistols, but others can do it too.
In my mind FF currently does not encourage good ranged play though mechanics, it mostly works by angering the players taking the damage, which seems silly, surely penalising the player doing would be better than penalising everyone else?
I agree that is exactly what it should do, and I believe that it should exist and that it should damage the receiving player too, I just think that a heavier burden should also be worn by the Committing player, that would cause players to more actively avoid it.
I certainly agree with all your points on what you can do to minimise FF damage from both player sides, even if I think it’s impractical in some cases. Mainly I think its stupid to penalise/frustrate only the receiving player though a direct health loss.
IT should promote a fairly hefty change in your playstyle. Take Sienna Fireball staff as an example. Spamming charged RMB in Veteran is “Comedy Combat” as you can literally rain down fireballs into a massive bunch of melee allies with impunity and never really need to use the more precise LMB shot. FF means a Fireball Staff Sienna should be looking for higher vantage points and bombing enemies further away allowing their allies to fight closer or more armoured enemies without someone yelling “Why am I on fire?” twenty times. IT should make a player improve situational awareness. Ha.
It should encourage ranged players into showing some discernment and restraint (good luck with that) and the fact that the player on the receiving end is the only one punished is why no-one cares about their FF and peppers arrows into a bunch of their friends.
The alternatives are;
Player causing FF suffers worse than the receiver. Loss of ammo is my off-the-top-of-my-head suggestion.
Player Causing FF suffers at the end, Loot being worse for prolific teamkillers.
FF causes significantly more damage, making someone reckless more likely to get kicked - although this gives trolls some real ammunition.(see what I did there?)
i will agree that friendly fire is a problem but that’s just because of player mentality.
In L4D when defending from a wave you’d have people who crouched, those who stood, and together you’d make a cooperative team effort to defend yourself.
In this game you’ll often be in situations where not EVEN crouching can let two players shoot at the same time. And there’s also the problem with being melee and trying to go into a kill zone. I think the biggest thing to realize is that essentially kills = health. And thus people kill to get health even if they don’t realize they’re full! You absolutely can’t disregard the change in mentality in the average melee players mind when he needs to get white health to fill back up so he can safely melee and what options he takes to go do that! There’s other problems like nothing in L4D being like the fireball staff or hagbane (and good lord you’d think something that only does 1 damage wouldn’t just eat my health away like acid when I’m fighting).
However, I’m a bit of a selfish player and I play Slayer. So generally if I need white health I’ll just round a corner during a kill zone fully confident that my own playing ability will protect me from the specials that will undoubtedly spawn for me because of the bad decisions I am making. I’m fine most of the time but people who try to push after me tend to die miserably. So the problem itself isn’t solved more than it’s just me snatching fun for myself and saying “to hell” with everybody else. I guess I got sick of people saying things like “well just don’t play passively”.
I’m sure they’ll find a balance at some point. Just give em time.
FF is a group mechanic meant to encourage more coordination both on individual basis as well as group-basis. Don’t be a douche and hit your teammates, don’t be a butthead and run in front of the fireline, and don’t force your teammates to walk around ALL the way just so you can shoot a regular rat.
It forces you to anticipate your teammates more and takes off the training wheels of lower difficulties, basically.
This is not really a thread about what FF is supposed to do.
While I guess there is a discussion to be put forwards that, FF is either there to encourage better team play, or to add extra damage into the game… This presumes it’s the first one, and then asks if that is being achieved with the current mechanic, I’m of the opinion that it is not really having much effect.
When shooting you’re often not aware you’re a double stacked character, you receive no negative effects, nor warning indicators. When Melee, you have no idea that your a double stacked character, when you’re being shot warning is the same as “a rat is attaching/pushing you”, and even when standing blocking you can be hurt/killed by it.
What’s more the game graphics occasionally encourages you to shoot friends, Krubers cape is the same red as the SV, the slayer dwarf is easy to confuse as a rat… and it’s the target that pays the penalty. Further I’ve seen plenty of ranged players who take the attitudes of either: “FF does no real damage” or " Why are you fighting it when I can shoot it?" And the game does little to discourage that.
So again what I’m really asking is do you think FF damage is effective at encouraging team play? I don’t think it is while the target pays all the penalties.
Your counter points seem more like player laziness or lack of situational awareness and are more easily written off as ignorance to game mechanics rather than game flaws;
If you see someone suddenly halt with their ranged weapon up, assume the worst, and don’t just walk through them. This game has plenty of options to deal with all this, namely WASD and especially… Here it comes, [ctrl] which has more uses than twerking for teammates.
Bardin, when not mistaken for a rat by players with character outlines turned off, arguably takes the least FF. When not bunnyhopping into the fire line constantly. Crouched characters match his short stature when crouching, and this isn’t done to taunt the vertically impaired dawri but to allow people to maneuver their way around more.
To add to this, when playing with a wizard -many of which I meet are sadly too lazy to move themselves and only move their staff around - i’ll often crouch when doing my melee if i know I’m going to be passing the fireside, and Dodge to make room.
If your teammates are too lazy to realize what they’re doing you have options rather than to point at the mechanics right away;
Either call them out and hope they learn
Either try not to provoke a hit situation by adapting
Or kick them.
Sorry if I come across as rude but I’m heavily opinionated against complaining about mechanics when players are, in my eyes, at fault.
The mechanic was fine in VT 1, in VT 2 you will suffer more because everyone and their brother sister and mother have ammo up to their noses and want to use it as much as possible, something the game encourages all too much.
In vt1 you just had elves nailing you in the back regularly if you had “that elf” or a bad sienna, or if you were crossing a heavy fire zone and were ignorant for it, you’d burn yourself. (not gonna forget you, drakefire bardin. :p)
Yup I got that, I was acknowledging certain level of ignorance in the Dev’s intent for FF, as the thread is basically suggesting is it NOT doing what I believe the dev’s intended it to do.
I heard what you said, and thought it was a pretty accurate description of what I understand FF should be doing. Again what I’m tying to get at is: “Is FF effectively encouraging better team play, and is it doing it the right way?”
My points certainly touched on the ranged players laziness, also on inability to see FF was about to occur due to game physics, no repercussions for the firer, the fact that avoiding FF is mechanical left up to the melee characters, who has in most circumstances no way to know it’s coming, or what/where the ranged target is, where the firer is, the mechanics that you have are suggested are great if/when you can stand still and tank, but mostly damage avoidance comes down to moving out of they way… ie: melee needs to be mobile or they will take damage.
I have not touched on all models have different heights, and as far as I’m aware crouching is not as effective for all of them due to this? also terrain is not always flat. Further adding to this character outlines certainly don’t always work for me, even having them always turned on, (and they are not set that way by default,) and not every player likes turning them on.
Finally the in game method of kicking players is effective, but also damned close to bullying.
I’m raising the idea that the ranged character should be paying a penalty as well, it would encourage better play on their part with less reliance on players telling other players how to play. (read: yelling at each other). Game mechanics that encourage a player (by directly effecting that player) to play in a more team friendly manner are better than players telling players to fix their game style.
I’m saying I think the mechanic is ineffective in achieving all the things you suggested it should be doing.
Quick note, I have not felt insulted, nor that you were rude. I think I disagree with you as I think the mechanics actively encourage players yelling at other players, which is bad.
I however I don’t think that taking damage is a bad mechanic either, I just think its not the entire solution to what I (and you?) believe FF is supposed to do.
I think there’s always room for improvement, if you have suggestions I’d love to hear them but some people have suggested the person hitting should take damage and I feel that’d be an awkward immersion breaking mechanic. I think additional screen effects would do a better job of informing the player, since most people throw a deaf ear towards the dialogue it seems.
I think the obvious one is to disable the shooters weapon traits and level based talents for a couple of seconds, denies a whole heap of thing the shooting is not going to like losing. (ammo recovery, heat dissipation, temp health gains, damage additions, crit chance) you could have one of the characters yell something about Sigmar’s displeasure/curse if you wanted an in game based reason.
I don’t think this is a perfect suggestion just throwing something out there.
The problem with inflicting damage (or some other punishment) on the shooter is that often it’s not the shooters fault: people go yolo-headfirst-diving into funneled mobs that I’ve been roasting with my flamestorm staff for a solid five seconds already, and then throw a tantrum about taking some FF.
I played a ton of L4D back in the day and one thing I miss about that game is everyone on expert understood that if you didn’t want to get shot you better mind your positioning and stay out of the way, crouch in front, etc. L4D2 even added melee weapons and people still were careful about it when meleeing. Of course in those games friendly fire was a lot higher; one shotgun blast or sniper round in the back and you were down.
v2 is different given more melee focus and aoe attacks and just general increased mayhem, but by-and-large I think a good chunk of the playerbase could use more active awareness of what their ranged teammates are shooting (or about to shoot) at. But at the end of the day, the punishment goes both ways; bad shooter will get disliked and kicked by his team, bad teammate getting shot will get, well, shot.
“The problem with inflicting damage (or some other punishment) on the Melee player is that often it’s not the Melee player’s fault: people shoot into funneled mobs that I’ve been Holding back with my Hammer for a solid 30 seconds, and then throw a tantrum about why was I fighting them in the first place when I complain about the FF.”
I’m quite aware of both sides, I’ve played both, I’ve been in games where my friends are bitching about someone causing a lot FF, I’ve taken a lot of FF from my friends, and I’ve done a lot of FF to them too, while there is no penalty to the shooter, the only person who is unhappy is the person being shot.
FF does not wind up in respectful and pleasant conversations. I think it’s supposed to get us to be better players but most of the time it makes us angrier players. The mechanic for getting a player who does not care about causing FF, to quit it, should not be a social one.
