For those struggling with Legend runs, here are some helpful tips

Let me start off by saying I was on 26 consecutive quickplay Legend wins in a row before my first team wipe which happened tonight. But first and foremost, people need to realize that group equipment and career composition is key to making each match easier. I rotate between 3 different characters depending on who’s in my group. You can’t just go in with 4 melee based careers and expect an easy win. First and foremost, consider “what’s my group good at handling and what equipment are they using?”

For example, a Bounty Hunter, Vet Ranger, Huntsman, and Waystalker are all VERY good at handling Elites before they even approach the party. As long as they’re doing their job, the rest of the run will already be much easier. That isn’t to suggest nobody else can handle Elites, they’re just especially capable of deleting them with rapid succession.

The next thing you want to consider is who is best capable at countering hordes? Having an Irondrake Flamethrower definitely makes life easier. And although many weapons in the game can hold off a horde, having someone specialize in wave clearing will make life so much easier on the rest of the group. Especially when those pesky hook rats are hiding within a horde and snag one of your teammates.

Once you’ve considered your groups gear / careers, consider your own. For example, if you’re playing a shade and you’re using daggers, you may be strong against elites and bosses at melee but you’re going to be especially weak against hordes. Taking a hagbane bow can make your life so much easier since one shot can easily clear 10-20 slave rats with a well placed shot. Don’t just equip yourself to handle one aspect of the game. Try to round out your gear while playing around your specialty. I see a lot of Unchained Sienna’s using daggers for that movespeed bonus and boss/elite damage, for example. The problem there is Unchained is a tank and dagger is not great at holding off hordes.

Keep an eye on your teammates and try to cover them as much as possible. One of the most important things you want to do is keep yourself and your teammates from taking damage as often as possible. Taking a hit on legend is very punishing and making it through an entire match with less than 300 damage taken is ideal.

Lastly, and most importantly, your positioning is key! If you’re group is getting circled by a horde, try to fight the sides of the horde to prevent them from flanking. The horde AI LOVES to flank now. Don’t worry so much about racking up the most kills. Focus on helping everyone survive. You should also consider where your group is and especially where your tanks are. Playing around your tanks as a dps will make life MUCH easier.

As for me, I main Bounty Hunter - Shade - Unchained.

For Bounty Hunter - I like to use the rapier because of the attack speed and cleave which makes handling hordes fairly easy. My go-to properties are almost always 5% crit chance, 20% crit power. For my traits, I always pick between Resourceful Combatant (2% CD on crit) or Swift Slaying (20% attack speed on crit). For the BH I always pick swift slaying because of how easy it makes horde handling. For ranged weapons I use either the single shot crossbow or the volley crossbow, depending on what my group has and how well equipped they are to handle hordes. If my group doesn’t have any horde specific equipment on hand, I’ll go volley crossbow. One volley shot with blessed aim will take out a decent handful of enemies and refund twice as many bolts. However, if there’s a flamethrower in the group or a Sienna with conflag, I’ll go for the single shot for the bonus damage to elites. As for properties, I’ll stick to the 5% crit, 20% crit power and for the trait, ALWAYS go Scrounger for the crit refund. Blessed shot is always a crit so you’re guaranteed to get your ammo back. Also make sure you take the Prize Bounty talent so your blessed shots cost no ammo.

For Shade - I use dual daggers for that overwhelmingly powerful heavy attack damage. For survival, I like to go 2 to stamina and 5% attack speed and I use Swift Slaying for that extra fast heavy attack spam and light attack speed for wave clear. For ranged weapons, I’ll use the hagbane (10% power to infantry / 10% power to monsters / Hunter Trait) if my group is weak on the horde clear plus boss damage is helpful, otherwise I’ll use the volley crossbow (5% crit / 20% crit power / Conservative Shooter) for quick special kills.

For Unchained - I like the beam staff / Fireball Staff (5% crit / 20% crit power / Heat Sink) because they’re both great for elite slaying and horde defense. For melee, both swords and the mace (2 to stamina / 5% crit chance / Swift Slaying) are great. Personally I prefer either the 2h mace or fire sword because they have great horde clear and elite damage.

As for the necklace/charm/trinket. My necklace has 2 to stamina / 20% hp / Hand of Shallya (Healing an ally with medical supplies also heals you for 35% of your missing health) But 25% dupe trait is also pretty good. As a tank you should go Natural Bond since you have damage reduction and will need healing less than your squishier teammates. For my Charm I use 5% attack speed / 20% crit power / Decanter (Increases the duration of potions by 50%) and for the Trinket I use 33% curse resistance / 10% Cooldown reduction (5% crit chance is also pretty good) and Shrapnel (Grenades cause hit enemies to take 20% increased damage for 10 seconds).

I hope you guys find this helpful. If you have any other tips, feel free to comment. And remember, nobody cares about your green circles. Work as a team and try to keep EVERYONE alive, not just yourself.

  • a clean slow run is mostly better than 2-3 fast wipes or hard runs without bonuses…consider that with horde & boss spawns so u may go back to a better position and take 5-10 mins instead of wipe

The core issue I always see is people just being slow in general… and I don’t mean slow in moving through the level I mean slow as gamers in general such that watching them is like watching a sloth in molasses. Slow to notice things, slow to move, slow to react… just their overall APM is too low for Legend and they just need more general gaming practice or maybe VT2 playtime. Champ being too easy could be a contributing factor as well, as the only way to get better at Legend is to play Legend.


Yeah when I first tried to move from champ to legend, it was a bit of a slap in the face. You can still use champ to get better at the game though obviously, by seeing if you can try to be under 200 dmg taken most of the time etc, and play like any setback/mistake is unacceptable.

Champ itself doesn’t teach you that though, for sure.

It’s been a while now, but I seem to remember the step from veteran to champ was pretty steep as well, so I’m not sure the solution is making champ more difficult. It’s one of those things that’s kinda hard to fix. You can’t learn just how important certain things are, until they really ARE that important.

Gotta play legend to get good at legend, like you said.


well i feel that there’s always a maximum level of skill for any player. for example if the sounds that enemies make are not apparent to the player after 50 hours of playing, they’re never going to be able to learn that skill. picking up on the packmaster laugh or skull rattle in the middle of a horde, or the subtle wheeze of a gasrat, then hunting them down so they don’t give your party problems during the next horde. or learning that fighting right out in the open is usually a bad thing.

in my geographical location there’s a couple of familiar faces i get while playing - i usually have an impression of their skill, and this hardly ever changes since the first time i met them.

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I totally agree with your points with some notable exceptions

No one likes to admit this, and yes, ALL classes can work in legend groups, but if you are going to choose the non-optimal of the three, then unchained can work well enough. She is standing next to her bigger sister however, the pyromancer, and she simply pales in comparative usefulness. Tho, with that said, even a Battle Wizard can work. Again, all non-optimal careers can work in legend difficulty

Also, and this just NEEDS to be said… Natural Bond works best for the player that can block very effectively and take little damage in an entire legend run. Otherwise he will simply soak up any or all of the medkits that spawn. I read somewhere on the forums a vindicating point about Natural Bond though… NB can be used to great effect in a deed with no pickups on the level. Which was a very good point, and I can see its usefulness in that situation

I realize that things like ‘to each his own’ and things like that apply here, and I dont mean to even suggest that unchained over pyro or NB over something more useful cant be a viable option. They all can work if you have a team that can compliment their weaknesses

I forgot to quote THIS! ^^^^

SOOOOOOO well said! :slight_smile:

Hmmm, you say Unchained is “non-optimal” of the three and that the pyro is her big sister. I don’t think you realize that the Unchained is a tank. Because if you did, you’d realize you’re comparing apples and oranges. The Unchained has a COMPLETELY different role to the Pyro while still being capable of dishing out heavy ranged dps with plenty of melee utility. The Pyro does NOT outshine the Unchained. If you have a Huntsman, a Shade, and a Bounty Hunter, A pyro would weaken the group’s dynamic. The better option would be the Unchained with 50% damage reduction and hefty horde control. Otherwise you have too many cooks in the kitchen battling for damage dealt…

Natural Bond is most effective with careers who can afford to take occasional damage because of their damage reduction (i.e. footknight, iron breaker, slayer, zealot, and unchained). This is complimented by an ability to block/dodge well. Most of the tanks I have in my friends list are able to finish runs w/o using any healing items throughout a run so long as everyone does their part and all of them use Nat Bond. It’s further complimented by having at least one person with Hand of Shallya so they can also benefit from healing the tank if necessary.

I think it’s important for me to say, just because the Pyro’s flaming skull is strong, it doesn’t automatically mean the Unchained isn’t one of the best tanks in the game. Seem’s like a weird thing to say but I just want to make sure you’re aware of the comparison you were making.


whoa whoa whoa, hold up, buddy. There are PLENTY of skills people can grow from beyond 50 hours of gameplay. Think about your comment like this, people work 40 hour weeks on average here in America. You think in 2 weeks that an employee will have mastered all of the ins and outs of a business? I think not. There is ALWAYS room for improvement.

If your geographical location has a limited player base, why don’t you help them grow as players and give them tips as politely as possible. I say as politely as possible because, In my experience, telling people they suck doesn’t encourage them to become better players. Letting them know what to do better or what to look out for is key.

No matter how good you think you are, or how bad someone else is, or even how long someone’s been bad. There is ALWAYS room for improvement…

Well, again to each their own. I am not a fan of an unchained ‘tank’ and if I want to tank, I use a real one like IB or Footman… but… she is the only ‘tank’ in Sienna’s list

Couple of things tho,

Unchained is NOT a dps like Pyro, so that is valid for sure - the apples and oranges thing applies and good point

In the group list where you suggested Unchained would be a better option than a Pyro, well thats debatable. I literally havent found a group where I would rather a lesser dps over a horde/boss killer. If the reason is as you list, ‘too many cooks in the kitchen battling for damage dealt’ then I would simply disagree. Quicker kills, quicker map movement, quicker win. Now that makes sense. I personally dont give a crap who kills it, just that it dies as quickly as possible

Natural Bond, does have its uses, but it isnt tied to a career. It simply depends on the skill of the player and his/her ability to avoid or mitigate most of the damage taken such that regen makes sense as a way to keep health up. Although some careers make that easier as you pointed out, an unskilled player on IB will take much more damage than a very skilled player on WHC. In that case, NB is wasted on IB and should be used on WHC. Well, with Natural Bond, I use ‘should be used’ loosely, in all cases lol

I am definately gonna say this tho… and you may not like it… but… its true for me… and imho…

Unchained is definately NOT one of the best tanks in the game lol

^ sorry :wink:

BW is also a tank, and one of the best at that.

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You’re giving noobs misinformation which is bad but you’re also giving them solid tips.
When you say handling elites you should take in to account chaos warriors which aren’t easily dealt with by any of the classes you mentioned. Huntsman can IF he has the handgun and in any other scenario IF he pops his special. Vet ranger will do some work with the handgun but you generally want a better weapon on ranger, you’d be better off slapping cw with a hammer or something mid ult. All of elfs ranged weapons suck for cw , waystalkers ult does some work if it actually hits the cw and you need to ult with bounty hunter to kill a cw.
Having a single player capable of soloing a horde is fine but they also take away any temp hp the team would need so they have to take that in to consideration , also the drake flamethrower blinds everyone near it. The best tip you can give people who are failing on Leg is to be prepared for everything. Have something to deal with every single enemy yourself. My waystalker elf for example cant deal with specials or elites from a range because of my hagbane which can solo bosses and wipe hordes if needed so I land 1 shot on them to stagger if necessary then dash and stab them a couple times with daggers. The added stats such as power vs skaven or armored allow you to 1 shot specific enemies or lower the amount of attacks needed for others.

Misinformation? Not covering a topic such as chaos warriors is not synonymous with misinformation. Secondly, the fact that you think none of the classes I mentioned are capable of easily handling Chaos Warriors leads me to question how much time you’ve actually spent either on Legend or as any of those careers. Shade’s can 1 shot them with her ult or 4 shot them with the 1st heavy strike of DD spec’d for crit/crit power, and the BH ult can 1 shot them as well, not to mention he can infinitely stagger them with xbow headshots until they die.

Also, your “best tip” is actually not even possible to several careers. Some classes can prepare for everything but many cannot and need to fill a role for those who can. I question your ability to even comment on this subject, honestly. I’d prefer if you didn’t comment further so you don’t feed anyone any misinformation, ironically enough.

I have 700 hours and I’d say about 600 of them is on legend if not more. I question your ability to read because I said how the characters can deal with cw I also said that having a class that can deal with hordes solo can be a good thing but also a terrible thing and gave my reasoning behind it. I was also talking about the characters you mentioned for picking off elites with distance and that it depends on the class itself as well as the weapons. Lastly for my tip every career can prepare for everything to some degree with the exception of dealing with trolls solo because of their regeneration.

People that are failing legend are failing because they are being hit by everything at once not because they haven’t cleared out a couple elites. They somehow agro a patrol and go forward agroing more elites and adds, then spawn a boss by going too far while dodging random leeches and runners . The tip of being prepared for anything doesn’t exactly mean that specific careers have the ability to one shot everything it means have the ability to somewhat deal with everything,even slayer if a specific special is a higher detriment than anything else he can take damage to get his special faster and just leap on the special. There are so many variables regardless and people should go in being able to deal with everything and keep learning what not to do for example not progressing forward when you have something left to deal with which you see people with 500+ hours still doing.

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@Cicero, I read your posts and you make some valid points. I dont disagree, but dont you think ‘misinformation’ is a little strong?

As an example: I dont like a flamethrower in the hands of an IB, nor do I like a flameweave staff in the hands of a Sienna… but as @moofercfg stated, it CAN be very useful. I dont agree, cuz I cant stand the damn things lol, but it isnt misinformation either

Maybe I am misunderstanding, but as I saw it, I was posting a different point of view. Unchained can be very survivable, and certainty is the most ‘tanky’ of the three… but I still dont consider her a good tank. Just imo

Although I think we can all agree that we can make any of the hero classes work in just about any group composition… though some setups may be harder than others in legend difficulty in particular

It is a little strong but It’s valid too, I can imagine a guy with like 5 hours seeing his post and being like “why dafuq can’t my swiftbow deal with elites that well??” And the same guy playing ironbreaker and getting people shouting at him for “stealing” all the temp hp and making the people that are trying to deal with the elites inside the horde blind. The thing is moofer says ironbreakers fire makes your life easier and is great for hordes which is fact but there are also setbacks for being too good at clearing hordes . I think I meant what he said was slightly misleading cus misinformation may have some malice behind it and the post is obviously to help people.

Well then I understand. Some people are gonna take these tips and think they are the only ones lol - cant help that. And on the other hand, some of them suit a certain kinda playstyle. I associate ‘misinformation’ with lies or just being plain ole wrong. I couldnt find that here, but I see what you mean. Hopefully those who are new and read this can see more than one angle

I also applaud the intent of the OP. He isnt tryin to tell you how to play, I think he is just telling you what has worked for him and hopes it can help newer players

But, in response, and after your posts, new players may also see the drawbacks of using weapons like the drakefire cannon and the flameweave staff

Ya gotta admit tho, that ending. Sweet! lol

Ima quote it again… hahahahaha

^ :slight_smile:

Yeah nothing he said was untrue or incorrect by any means BUT there are way more variables to take in to account and the information is slightly lacking is what I mean . To go in to a SINGLE weapon and it’s situational uses in depth would take up as much space and time as the op took to talk about several things.

Well said. 100%

I couldnt agree more

I wonder what the rest of these forum readers think? We have a few ‘characters’ on here…