This is to what I was referring. And again, Shade and BH can both handle Chaos Warriors like it’s nobody’s business. Also, I have to argue your tip about Slayers intentionally taking damage to build career ability CD to pounce on a special. If players are having trouble on Legend, that isn’t new legend friendly advice tbh lol. Those kinds of tips should be saved for more advanced legend runners, don’t you think?
Well, that’s where we’d have to agree to disagree because I think the Unchained, as a tank, is second only to the IB. Her staff selection gives her a ton of damage output to counter both elites and hordes at the same time and it’s only complimented by her survivability. She’s basically a dps who can tank and carry tomes and grims for her other dps teammates. That makes her very useful imho. I’m not saying to play unchained as a dps over the pryo, but if your team needs a tank, she’s a very useful pick and one of the most fun tanks to play.
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Well you are right about disagree - I dont think you said anything I DO agree with there!
Wait, she got some sweet ass staves… that part… the staves. Yep they nice lol
lol that’s fine. However, I would like to hear your argument as to why she isn’t as good as the Mercenary, Foot Knight, Slayer, or Zealot.
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‘Isn’t as good’? Lets reword that to, ‘I would prefer an IB or Footman over an Unchained ANY day’… IF tanks were needed… lol
This game only really has one tank career. We all know its IB, and its not just because he has a tanky passive with some extra health… but his ult takes aggro from the rest of the team if he is in range. Heck, that includes a boss if you talent for it. So that being said, all other classes are just partials. That includes my 2nd pick, Footman. He cant take aggro off you, but he CAN give a damage mitigation shield if you are close enough. My thinking here is that when the passive, talent or ult gives a reasonably defensive bonus to your team mates, then it stands to reason that the career is ‘tanky’
You listed a few, and they just don’t fit the description of a tank to me. I would consider a Zealot with the right talent spec, to be survivable, but selfishly so. He isn’t bringing anything defensive to the team, and for that matter, neither does Mercenary. I personally look at Mercenary as a melee dps with a utility ult that can save a wipe if used correctly, but tank? No
And wait wait wait wait… hold up hold up hold up… Who the HELL told you Slayer is a tank? hehe
I mean, I love the little drug addicted ADHD poster boy, but having a slight damage mitigation and some extra health cant qualify an upgrade to tank status! He has melee dps written all over em, and its probably written on a tattoo too! …somewhere
Now on to the girl of the hour, Unchained
I look at her like this. A high health mage, with some damage mitigation, access to an underwhelming selection of melee weapons (and yes, they need some love) and a nice set of fire staves. Her ult is as selfish as can be, and the slight stagger aint gonna save no runs, and truthfully, can be more of a hindrance to your team than a help. What about her talents? See any in there to drops shields on your team mates? Even a Footman can do that!
The reason I decided to post here is because I believe its a misrepresentation to label Unchained as a tank, and when people read this, and see that you even compared her ‘tanking abilities’ to Ironbreaker, its hard not to pipe in for a quick correction
Imho, if you liken Unchained to IB, then either you havent played a ‘real tank’, or Unchained is gettin some seriously unwarranted praise in the tank department
Semantics aside, and without quibbling about the definition of what you think a tank is… she… isnt.
Anyway, it all comes down to what you like to play, regardless of what anyone else thinks! Play the way you enjoy, and in an experienced group, I am sure they will adapt and play accordingly. Also, props for posting your legend tips and detailing the most effective builds you use! Agree or not, if you are winning your legend runs, then you are doing something right, right?
They can both deal with one each . BH has a terrible cooldown so he won’t be one shotting for a while and shade can mby get it back quick if she gets hit and slaps a few slaves. Having them quickly dispatch of a cw is fine but what about when you agro a chaos patrol or if there just happens to be 3 or 4 around you that you don’t notice while you’re trying to regroup with your team to safely kill the horde as well as random shield guys and stormvermin. Both shade and BH are glass cannons and when their special is on cooldown and they are cornered, they can’t trade hits with the horde to land consistent shots on a cw especially not bh , shade mby with a quick charged dagger attack and dodge back. I was also talking about the classes you mentioned for killing elites from afar.
Slayer can be pretty beefy and also provides constant cc so I’d say that fits in to a tank role. He just happens to be a tank that can delete anything that looks at him funny,even bosses if you have the right stats
Slayer does NOT have constant CC. If you are referring to his ult, then its uptime is quick. Nowhere NEAR constant tho. Crowd control dosent take aggro. Neither does slayer. Also, being able to delete something is the definition of dps!
For GODS sake man… stop using the term ‘tank’ so loosely! lol
If you play him right you get it around every 7 to 10 secs. With the talent which gives you cooldown reduction as well as constantly being slapped to lose your temp hp and regaining it after ulting and hitting the horde a few times you get it back really quick and you just repeat the process over and over. His cc is overwhelming for hordes and pushes them all back which creates hyperdensity and allows you to hit way more enemies than usual and kill some which regenerates the special even faster . His cc staggers elites far less tho. I just tested it on a single dummy and it takes about 10 secs to get the special back on hitting the dummy alone.
Yep, I agree. Slayer is an awesome melee dps 
My Bardin is +280 or something btw… and is the most played of them all. I have tried everyhing under the sun on IB, RV and Slayer. They were the 1st ones I had to get the legend suits and 100 win cosmetic helms on
My time in V2 is somewhere around 1350 hours as reported by steams game overlay, so I understand Bardin and all his careers very well
One more time… and indulge me here…
Slayer is an awesome melee dps
hehe
As I stated before, BH can permastun a CW with headshots from the crossbow. The Shade can kill a CW with 4-6 heavy attack headshots depending on crits, and both can 1 shot chaos warriors with their career ability. They’re both very well equipped to handle CW’s better than most. And sure, when you lay down a specific scenario where they’re cornered by a horde and CW, they need to rely on somebody else but that’s a specific scenario that wasn’t a part of the discussion. I’ve been playing shade a lot lately and I love having opportunities to show my usefulness when it comes to chaos warriors. ESPECIALLY if we have an extra conc potion that I don’t need to save for a boss. A shade can solo a chaos patrol with a conc potion no problem
I think you’re thinking about tanks in the traditional “holy trinity” sense like in wow: tank/healer/dps. In Vermintide, it’s more of a front-line role. If you have damage mitigation and decent CC, you can fill the role of tank. Obviously the IB is the best tank and most closely fits the traditional title but overall, it’s not so cut and dry. A slayer has damage mitigation, extra health, and plenty of CC to save lives. Even though he is a hard hitting melee dps, he absolutely can fill the role of tank for the group.
As for Unchained, her ult staggers bosses and can be used to create plenty of breathing room during a horde, she takes reduced damage making her comfortable holding on to grims, she has passive reduced block cost, and is a career that’s comfortable front lining hordes and bosses alike. IMHO, in terms of vermintide, she absolutely is a tank. She doesn’t have the overall tankiness of an IB but she still fits the bill quite well. I’ve met a few Unchained in Legend runs early on who could easily survive the whole map with full hp even if the rest of the party died. As she takes damage, her melee dps goes up and block cost goes down. You’ve never seen an unchained tank a horde and a boss before? Bruh, she a tank whether you like it or not 
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well i do agree there’s always room for improvement, but we’re not talking potential improvement on skills, we’re talking actual improvement on skills. i know that you feel everyone has a chance to be a great player, but i personally feel everyone has a skill cap, if you give everyone 5000 hours of play in any sport, there will still be a huge skillgap between some players.
on topic, i actually did think about his statement about a pyro vs unchained. they both have different roles i agree, but given the lineup you described (huntsman, shade, bounty hunter) and given the choice of having a good pyro or a good unchained player, i’d still take damage dealers over tanks (good players already know how to handle hordes well you don’t quite need a tank)
but that’s my personal preference for team lineup anyway. the unchained is no pushover when it comes to tankiness. you are absolutely right about the apples and oranges comparison!
The only tank is IB. He takes aggro from you. I am not gonna spend more time explaining this. You have to just read until you understand I guess? Reread my previous post, the long one. There isnt anything to argue over. Its all just fact. You dont need to like it either. Heck, I dont like that a drakefire cannon is helpful in any situations, but the fact is, that it can be in some
All the careers listed here have ONE thing in common with IB. They all have high survivability. Thats it. That includes Unchained of course. They bring no real defense to the rest of the team. The difference between a ‘real tank’ and being survivable is that one helps the TEAM survive, not just themselves
Oh, and this is just silly…
This is a very loose definition of the role of a tank. Its not just having high survivability or some CC that defines what a tank is. Heck if that was all that was required to be a ‘real tank’ then there are a LOT of tanks in this game huh? Well, there arent. Save one.
Yeah, thats because only ONE of them can take aggro from you and actually help YOU survive… not just themselves!
Unchained helps herself. No one else. NOT a tank. Just high survivability. Accept it. Its nothing but fact. Oh, and the light ‘CC’ you might talk about referring to her ult is a joke and as I stated in my previous post…
Ever wonder who people would want on their team when things get a little out of hand? They are about to die and they need some help? You think its Unchained? Who knows, maybe some do. It sure aint me. I want a nice Ironbreaker to take the aggro, that might otherwise kill me, so I can get the shot off on that blight stormer thats about to wipe the group. Unchained would do nothing to keep me alive in that situation. If her ult was up, she may pop it close to me, ruining my aim for the whole 2 seconds it would take for me to get that shot off in the first place. A tank has the ability to help ME survive TOO!
And sure, Ironbreaker isnt the only one that can provide some ‘breathing room’ for a team mate, many careers can. But, and overwhelmingly so, he is the best one at doing it. Comparing Unchained to IB only works if you say they both have high survivability, but similarities stop there. One is a tank, and helps the team survive - and the other is highly survivable, and helps herself survive
drops mic
^ I always wanted to do that 
Oh, I realize there are two ‘moos’ here that may be baiting me… so I will end my rant on the loose use of the term tank here hehe
um, i think your definition of a ‘tank’ is what’s causing some strife here. for me, a ‘tank’ is any class that focuses on crowd controlling/stunning/knockdown/staggering mobs so that the can’t even deal any damage. for @moofercfg, i think his definition of a tank is someone that can perform AOE CC, knockdown/stun the enemy so that they stop being an immediate threat to someone that’s surrounded or in a bad spot. i kinda share this view in that the slayer’s aoe jump fits this role perfectly as a defensive disruptor (i’ve seen good slayers perform admirably at this), and the conflag staff for the mage, and kruber’s knockdown - all of them are on a short cooldown.
you’re right about IB being the only character that can actually shift aggro to him and take all the hits without being damaged (great for handling patrols). but there are other ways to handle these things, (eg. conflag can chain stun a large stormvermin group which is about to lay the smack down on a teammate) which changes up the view of what constitutes a ‘tank’.
the stagger you are talking about, is actually very important when playing other chars, i’m not sure if you’ve seen proper unchained tanks chain staggering any elite so they can’t even get hits off (similar to IB with the flamethrower). would u call that a tank? well, imo any class/loadout that can do that, should be doing it to help out any party member.
LOL dude, just a healthy discussion, not trying to bait or anything.
Basically this… lol. I’ve been jumping into champ games to spam the 100 clears for each character to get the hats. And it’s so unbelievably easy. To the point I don’t even worry if most of the team goes down, I know I can solo the boss/horde/whatever and get them up. I honestly don’t remember it being that easy when I used to play champion. And holy crap, my mate just started playing so I went back to do some Vet runs with him. You don’t even have to stop, just keep running forward spamming left click. Nothing will stop you except a boss which you can solo as fast as a CW on legend lol. My wife and I couldn’t do anything but laugh. We remember how hard it was for us only a few months ago, when it wasn’t uncommon to wipe on Champ or back at the start when we would wipe on Vet.
There is really nothing that prepares you for Legend, champion doesn’t come anywhere close.
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The REAL CC Sienna job is actually Battle Mage.
Battle Wizard will outdo even Pyro.
Fast Charge attacks on the Staves mean you can charge and launch full staff attacks, making things like Conflag and Fireball the staff of choice for this job.
When armed with either Dagger or Mace they are also pretty decent on elites should it come to that.
Pyro’s real strength is in Boss Mobs and Elites… not CC or mass AoE… that the Battle Wizard does much faster and wipes out hordes twice as fast.
Mostly due to the Fast Charge Speed that increases the more you get overcharge. And the Ult which seems worthless on the surface actually clears all overcharge… so once you get to a sliver of overcharge before explosion you just burst your Ult against a wall and all the Overcharge is gone for more Conflagging and Fireballs.
BM ult also staggers everything.
EVERYTHING.
It’s quite useful once you realize the playstyle BM demands, and the few things she’s actually good at.
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