Everything wrong with Legend, Loot, and Rebalancing

So! For those of you that have played the beta and reached high levels of hero power and were doing champion you will notice champion became significantly easier upon release to make room for Legend, the new Cata equivalent, well, thats all fine and dandy, im sure most of us were itching to play it, however! Its got some pretty serious issues and the re balancing and loot system are all functioning together right now to make end game content simply not enjoyable.

Here is the breakdown, rerolling trails its still really poorly designed without the ability to keep perfectly rolled traits you want even red weapons are mediocre, you basically have to decide what stat is the most important and hope the other isn’t trash when you finally roll what you want, making min-maxing and stat stacking exceedingly difficult and grindy, even more so now that stats were nerfed to the point of showing little to no noticeable difference in game with few exceptions.

The re-balancing issue upfront seems reasonable but playing in Legend is just laughable at the moment as most classes, why you ask well let me break down the problems with Legend and why so many talents and builds, even weapons are left in the dust.

For anyone who played V1 with QoL mod Legend will seem very similar, all clanrats are basically replaced with storm vermin, special spawns are rampant, and chaos warriors and berserkers are all over the place, essentially its less “vermintide” and more like “special tide” the actual hordes you face happen somewhat infrequently and die pretty much instantly against a well focused or geared group, but just walking through the map feels like you are fighting a storm vermin patrol every 2 feet, why is this a problem you ask? Well first off it limits the viability of half the weapon loadouts in the game, anything that is good for cleaving or clearing out waves is near useless, forcing people to use almost exclusively anti armor/ anti large weapons. This in an of itself is more annoying than it is difficult, you are pigeonholing players into very specific set ups and forcing very specific builds making the fact that vermintide has so much content to offer a moot point. Also, act bosses, what the heck? How are you supposed to fight basically any act boss when you are tossing waves of storms and specials at the players during the whole fight? 7 assassins while fighting the last boss of skittergate? How is that fun at all? Legend seems to have removed any concept of skillful or intelligent play, making it so only certain builds can function and even then act bosses are basically not doable.

The massive re-balance and change in talents making them have little to no impact also just feels plain bad, if you don’t want them to do much just take them out, Elf’s 15 talent tier is worthless, her passive is worthless, shade is still bad, Kruber’s cleave is useless against armored targets, knight’s active 25 talent to get 100% block for 10 seconds works about 50% of the time, bountyhunter and huntsman no longer chunk bosses hard, in fact huntsman seems like a useless build now, Sienna and Ironbreaker seem ok but thats only because they are “OP”

At 600 power Champion is a cake walk, legend is annoying, not fun, poorly designed, and in some instances maybe impossible (Skittergate, Helscourge, ect)

Right now you have made it so most of the players who can even do a legend map which im sure is an absurdly small % are reduced to farming early act maps with easy to reach grims and tomes to get red items, super boring its horn of magnus all over.

Oh yeah and stuff is still buggy as all get out, if the game wasn’t ready to be released I would of rather waited for a quality product instead of getting one that is nearly unplayable for any number of reasons.

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Legend is pretty crazy.

I think it’s okay to be difficult, but you’re right. Everything has armor. Anything that doesn’t deal damage to that is useless, all ranged attacks that require ammo are only used for specials. Sort of constrained to a few possible builds and weapons. It becomes a difficulty built around blocking and dodging.

The game isn’t balanced around legend and it shows. It’s fine I suppose, balancing it around that would make the game really difficult for the developers.

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i’m not even sure what you’d change at legend at this point, since like you said, the hordes are meaningless. there are ways to cheese the hell out of them from range, which isn’t inherently bad other than the fact it doesn’t really cost anything. or thanks to the recent enemy nerf, everybody has a ridiculous amount of cleave and you can just mow them down anyways. the only way they can even have it a challenge is with absurd special spawn rates.

the ARPG aspects and scaling have really backed them into a corner on this end. there’s not much to do without severely overhauling things.

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They could stop making every non-wave rat unit storm vermin, that would make it a lot less annoying and allow a better variety of weapons to be considered “usable”, the damage delt and number of specials / bosses are probably challenging enough to be on par with v1 cata as is without having them around. Plus with added mod support you could always have storm mutation or something similar or even make separate game modes if you want that kind of content.

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Yeah agreed. Even Plague Monks would be better than storm vermin(albeit still annoying) because more weapons would be able to take them down. Skaven don’t have the big axe guys that are unarmored and aren’t quite as oppressive as berserkers. The entire map being storm vermin is kind of terrible.

Since the forum is being weird by telling me there are forbidden words in my post and after reading over it 5 times I was unable to find ANYTHING offensive, but also cant be bothered to rewrite my entire reply, you can find it here.(pastebin)

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Make everything tougher and make everything hit harder, instead of making more of everything. Reduce item spawn even more.

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I dont really think that making stuff more damage spongey is the right answer here. Making enemies hit harder, sure. That ensures that only those that are really good at or have mastered the game mechanics actually have a reasonable shot at doing legend. Spawning bigger hordes? Why not… Less healing supplies in general? Hell yeah. Making me punch a slave rat 5 times because…difficulty? Hell no.

Maybe an instant death instead of down but not out could apply too, since for all intents and purposes, Legend is supposed to be hardcore mode. Having more regular special spawns helps too, up to a certain threshold that probably shouldnt be crossed(because that would make it ridiculous). Maybe spawn 2 or 3 guaranteed mini bosses per map.

It doesnt have to be all of the stuff I listed here but heck, be creative instead of dumping an asston of armoured targets on the map and calling it a day.

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Proposed Fix ideas:
Limit if not remove special spawns from act boss encounters, 7 assassins 2 gunners and 3 hooks not counting storms vs the last boss of Skittergate on Legend is absurd.

Remove or reduce storm vermin density issues, fighting 30+ at a time just because “legend” is silly

Reduce the power of cleave / aoe abilities to make packs more dangerous, this might also require a bit of work so that mobs cannot spawn inside the floor or walls of good holding spots so that players can use position to fight large waves instead of just making them easy to kill.

Make talents more impactful or viable at higher tiers or improve / add more useful traits to items.

Allow active abilities to deal reasonable but not absurd boss damage, same with ranged attacks, currently infinite ammo weapons have a significant advantage.

Reduce special frequency slightly and replace it with more frequent waves. 1-3 specials in a wave of vs a boss seems more reasonable than 10-12 in the span of 30 seconds while fighting endless stormvermin.

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I get your point.Then maybe a constant “mini-horde” spawn through the entire map?(and regular hordes on top of that).

I like the instant death instead of downed idea,but then it would handmaidens passive and all traits that have something to do with picking up useless. Maybe make it so after you’re back up you’re at 1 hp,so even ff could kill you instantly.

Maybe also adjusting behavior of elite units. Giving them a few new moves, maybe some abilities?

The chaos warriors could have a bull rush charge like the boss in warcamp,plus a 3 hit heavy overhead strike instead of the 1 hit he has now.
Stormvermin could have a 360 degree knockback attack like the stormvermin boss, plus (also) a 3 hit combo attack.
Berserkers could attack while charging at you, same with monks.
Something like this could also be added to the specials and bosses. (these are just ideas off the top of my head,I bet the developers could come up with something more interesting if they wanted to.)

Expanded movesets could really mix things up,not only making those enemies more lethal on their own but also less predictable. Making elite/special units into mini-bosses and mini-bosses into actual bosses.

50% of players are like: Legend is too easy! another 50% of players: Legend is too difficult! Some other players: Recruit is too difficult! Stop whining please and just play the game, enjoy it, complete some deeds. If you are able to complete Legend - well, you beat the game, and you are really good. If you are unable - just play more, gear more and become better. The game is 3 days after the release, let devs do their job, the amount of whine on this forum is completely annoying. And please, really, stop saying like “Cata in V1 was harder!”. Its another game, its far more bigger, more popular and oriented on larger amount of people, than V1. And still, it is BETTER than V1 in every point.

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50% of players are not saying it’s too easy. Ego-stroking neckbeards are the ones trying to say it’s easy, when they likely haven’t even done it yet or they will only play on specific maps because they know it’s BS on half of them. You’re talking about a handful of people at best. Also, if you read the posts you’d see it’s not simply a matter of “too difficult”. It’s the limiting design of Legend. Gotta love when people post without even reading any of the stuff the thread is talking about other than the title.

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I agree with everything you’ve said pretty much 110% , was just saying these exact things to my team last night , basically all the ambient being changed into SV , thats not real difficulty its just cheap , forcing players to run armour piercing . We had a deed that turned all ambient rats into stronger guys and they’ve just copied that straight into legend .

Vote for game name change : Stormvermintide 2

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Yeah, 3 days after the release and game still looks like freaking alpha, not a finished product. GG, lazy devs.

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Come now, thats not right. Have you ever seen a game in alpha? I mean real alpha, not vertical slice “alpha” shown off at E3 for marketing purposes.

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Ok, not alpha, beta maybe, but this is all the same. Crashes, placeholders, lots of bugs, poorly balanced classes, terrible UI and crafting system, broken matchmaking - it’s not like released game should look, not at all. Especially after 3 beta stages (What was the whole purpose of these betas, if 90% of issues players reported still here?)

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Its dumb because today we swapped some stuff up, easy legend runs… but it required an exact set up, its boring to force people to play a certain way.
Knight Kruber - 2h hammer / blunderbust - anti armor unit dumps storms and chaos warriors
BH Saltz - good for specials, thinning waves, can handle armor with rapier, and dumps bosses
Pyro Sienna: ranged, clears packs well can do damage to all other targets
IB dwarf - axe/shield for anti armor and tankystuffs, and a drake gun for hordes

absolute snoozefest you just run around gangbanging storms and instakilling waves, is it easy? sure? fun? nope! are 90% of the talents and weapons useless making only this viable? Yup! I should stop talking before they nerf all this stuff…

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I don’t like that Legend is basicelly: Take Champion, give it 10x more SVs, 5x more specials spawns, 10x More Chaos Warriors, 10x more Maulers. GG, done.

And loot is frustraiting because of lack of Shrine of Solace from V1. Currently rerolling properties and traits is a RNG chore, where you can waste all your mats and still be left with nothing.

That is a very very bad way of handling gear in loot based game.

I agree with this in regards to legend.

When balancing for higher difficulties there are several different routes to take to make a challenging experience. They seem to have chosen the “throw literally everything at you” route. Just massive amounts of specials and armored enemies. This is in a sense challenging but its not really that fun or engaging, not like cata in V1.

IMO champion currently, has the best distribution of enemy types. It may be a tad heavy handed in the special spawning department but…it isn’t unbeatable.

I would like legend to just take whats already given to us in champion and just adjust the numbers in favor of the enemy rather than the player. More enemy hp, less player damage, more enemy damage reduction ect.

These higher difficulties should be challenging and hell they should even be unfair at times. But it shouldn’t just be about spamming the unique and special enemies at the player until they fail. Again the special and armored enemies are in the game to AUGMENT the trash mobs that spawn. They (specials and armored) are their to ASSIST the hordes of chaos spawns and slaves/clans. They are SPECIALS. If you start throwing them at the player in 5-6 groups then they lose not only their shock value but their purpose as augmenters.

If I see ONE chaos warrior on legend in a trash mob, that should be enough to sufficiently scare me and my party into working together. TWO should be a moment where the team needs to communicate and work together effectively. Same goes for storm vermin. If you basically just throw big enemies and specials at the player like a flood to a small village hoping to wipe away the houses. That isn’t engaging. Its just annoying at best and unfair at worst.

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I agree with that. It’s irritating, not engagning or “challanging”. Anyone can make “spawn boss, horde, 2 assassins, 2 packmasters, ratling gunner etc + WC patrol” and say “it’s challanging”. No it’s not, its artificial difficulty, not a really mechanic challange.

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