Word of advice: Don't let elitists mess up your game

he is right, most of those whiners are low level players, that get frustrated when their team mates killing everything and they cant get their ‘fun’ with their ‘main’ char.

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Everyone I know who was doing champion in beta and is messing with legend now is pretty furious at the rolling nerfs 90% of the weapons and classes are not viable for legend so the game just isn’t fun at all right now sadly, a lot of people I play with or know are pissed.

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100% Agree. I haven’t even got to the hardest difficulty yet and Im looking at traits and properties and abilities and they just all look a lot less interesting and fun.

I get they want the game to be harder but things still should be impactful otherwise whats the point in all traits and bonuses if they either trigger rarley or are negligible.

If you dont want special abilities nuking boss how about bosses reduce damage from abilities. Still strong but not enough to obliterate it.

Please consider how the changes effect all players not the few that apparently find the game too easy maybe adjust the harder difficulty rather then every part of the game. Also providing reasons behind changes would be nice.

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Finding the right balance is always a bit tricky for devs of almost any game really. As Ive already wrote in different threads - the most enjoyable games are often the ones that are easy to get into and enjoyable on a beginner level but also have a gigantic skill ceiling, leaving massive room for improvements for those ppl interested in “being the best”. If you cater too much to the casuals, your game will die out fast because they will move on after a few weeks. If you cater too much to the “elitist”(not really meant in a negative way here) players, the casuals will get scared off and youll likely find yourself with an empty game too, potentially even out of funds to continue development.

I think FS are on the right track with this game tho. I enjoyed V1 - as did many others - but am also happy that V2 is not just V1 with new maps and a bit better graphics. The new features and mechanics feel nice, rewarding and refreshing. However, we need to be careful when we ask for buffs and such regarding these things as too much of this(which was the case during the beta) will warp the game experience and essentially turn V2 too far away from its roots, warping it into something entirely different.

V1 was heavily dependent on individual player skill and teamwork. It was much more akin to games like Left 4 Dead than V2 was in previous versions. There were no player skills, no passives, no ultimates. EVERYTHING was down to the player and their gear. No get out of jail free abilities. The game had broken stuff too. The trueflight bow was the best example of that. However, all in all the game was teamplay and personal skill above all. V2 seems to return to this premise while trying to keep their new features somewhat relevant and useful without being completely overpowered.

If you have to rely on a crutch skill thatll save your bum everytime you find yourself in a dire situation, V2 might not be for you unless youre among the casual crowd that doesnt mind if they never play anything more challenging than easy or vet. This isnt to imply that you personally belong to this group as I dont know you, your habits, your skill etc. However, as a general observation I found this to be true more often than not. People that rely solely on the “new and shiny tools” that V2 brought in, without first learning the basics of how Vermintide should be played, will likely not last very long on higher difficulties and will struggle to enjoy themselves as soon as they leave their comfort zone.

Actually, devs confessed that balancing legend is very challeging to them, because, apparantley, none of them are good enough at their own game, so they can’t really bit it on legend. If you’ve seen Victor playing on livestreams at fatsharkgames twitch chanell, you know what I am talking about. So if you have any feedback on top difficulty, they will be pretty gratefull for it (given they would have the time for it, considering all present bugs). You should start a new topic dedicated to it! Also, they probably balance things around hero power of 600+, so it is hard to see full picture now, unless you grind like a madman.

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already have :smiley:

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wot he said. v2 is also similar.

a lot of people think that talents mean everything. what matters most is individual skill with weapons, awareness, reflexes, accuracy, and a willingness to play for the team (healing your buddies, escorting teammates on objectives, making sure no one is alone)

talents are a supplement for good gameplay, not as a replacement.

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Hey guys,

I get that V2 is a skill based game. I played the heck out of V1 and have really enjoyed playing V2. I’m currently level 30 and working my way up. Please don’t think I was saying that elite players were calling for crazy nerfs or something… I honestly have no idea who was. I have nothing against the elite community.

  • What I do believe though is that sometimes developers see a small group of players using meta builds that are over powered or even game breaking and they have a knee jerk reaction that ends up punishing normal players severely.

  • While V2 is FOR SURE skill based. The RPG elements are really exciting for a guy like me and I’d hate to see the baby thrown out with the bath water.

This is just my way of saying, “hey Fatshark, don’t forget about the little guy.” I have a ton of faith in them, I’m sure they will figure it out.

You’re right though. The elitism is really strong in this game (just like V1 for that matter). People tend to forget there’s a huge portion of the playerbase that’s more casual and doesn’t need to run Legend 24/7 to have fun or to show off.

I wouldn’t necessarily boil this down to calling for nerfs though, it’s more things like wanting the devs to balance the game around Legend and stuff like that.

Why do those “normals” care so much about nerfs/buffs. You can play any difficulty and enjoy the game. Nerfs and Buffs are not made for certain players, but ideally to give the best experience to everybody.

That’s just your impression then. I think most nerfs were needed. Some were too hard and some caused unintentional additional nerfs, which will get fixed again. Especially the people playing Legend will not care about nerfs, as they are searching for a challenge. Playing those “not viable” classes is a lot of fun. Anyway, i think any class can be used on Legend, if you put in enough effort. That does not mean that everything is perfectly balanced, though.

Ideally the game is balanced on every difficulty and there are a lot of ways to reach that goal.

Yes exactly, but I keep hearing from hardcore players that’s not possible and the game has to be balanced around Champion and Legend.

You have to have a referencepoint. That should be Champion or Legend, but that does not mean that everything can’t be scaled down and adjusted for lower difficulties. The whole point of having options for difficulty is to scale. Of course balancing Recruit around being lvl30 doesn’t work. For new players Recruit should be challenging, but possible. For experienced and highlevel players Recruit should be too easy, but those palyers should find a good challenge in higher difficulties, that are balanced around higher hero- and powerlevels, while still scaling upwards in terms of difficulty. That also means that newer players might not be able to complete Champion and Legend missions, even though they have enough power.

Hey man, I don’t think allocating a large chuck of a games player base to the “kids table” like that is a great idea.

There’s a lot of factors that go into it, just to name a few off the top of my head:

  1. How much time does the average player actually have to play? Everyone’s scale for what’s challenging is going to be a little bit different. Everyone wants to get better.

  2. Are you allowed to take ownership of your play experience? How creative in your builds and play styles are you allowed to be? (The more creativity, the better in my book)

  3. What type of community is the game fostering? Is playing with and talking to others online going to be fun and cooperative or is it going to be a lesson in the latest and greatest ways to be verbally abused? Haha.

  4. The most important factor. Is it fun to play? (Yes, V2 is a blast)

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I was answering to your OP and not talking about the community or builds at all. What i just wrote in the post before yours also applies to that. You can get better and play on higher difficulties, but starting out there is no shame in playing Recruit or Veteran.
Your fourth point is exactly what i was aiming for. Balance changes are made to keep the game fun.

All of those things are connected in a game. A nerf levied on the top end can very well trickle down and effect the play experience of the masses.

I’m going to call the normal or avarage player here “Bob” :slight_smile: Here is Bob’s story:

  • Bob is busy, so He only plays one character to maximize the effects of his play time.

  • Bob had a great time in recruit learning his character and has moved on into harder difficulties in order to improve. Bob is collecting gear and perfecting a unique play style that’s all his own.

  • One day Bob jumps into a quickmatch and notices someone instantly drop. Bob doesn’t think anything of it. However, it keeps on happening. Later Bob learns from a very rude gentlemen in chat that according to the meta his subclass and weapons are garbage.

  • Bob is sad, he feels like he wasted his time. He’s nervous about taking his character into matches and getting cursed out again. Bob decides to retire from Vermintide 2 instead of starting all over. Bob doesn’t buy any new DLC.

  • Fatshark’s projected revenue is lower then expected because all the “Bobs” have stopped playing. They cancel some internal plans for future expansions.

  • The whole community misses out on the fun we could have had if we kept Bob.

It’s all connected buddy.

Thats why Fatshark tries to balance the game, so Bob can play his class. But maybe Bob also needs to learn to ignore some random idiots on the internet. :stuck_out_tongue:
Bob can also not expect to play the game on higher difficulties without learning and improving and at some point he might have to change his playstyle to improve. That doesn’t have to mean that he has to play another class or use other weapons, but to adapt his own actions.
People instantly dropping often has something to do with their ability to block and dodge, which is the same for every class.
Finally i would like to add that playing another class does not mean that you have to start over. Playing other classes is fun and adds to the enjoyment of the game.

LOL

this! it totally adds to the fun and you learn how to cover the weaknesses of other classes too.

but they already bought the game heh heh heh heh heh.
kidding! bobs should totally be welcome at an entry level, but unfortunately at all levels, there’s gonna be haters and elitists and rude dingbats who just want to ruin your day. hopefully some sort of system will be designed to combat that.

the biggest issue is that there is both the “bobs” and “the elitists” are wagging the dog.

a casual player that plays a few dozen hours of vermintide and moves on to other games is great for sales and $ but isnt really the most informed player about whats best for the game.

an elitist that is already better than 95% of the community and is blitzing with ease through the highest levels and wants some more challenge thrown at him isnt offering advice for whats best for the game.

generally speaking the bread and butter player for fatshark will be the guys who are willing to play everyday and are willing to invest more time, energy, and learning into the game vs bob and the guys who get a little better everyday but still find the game challenging vs the the elitists. the middle ground is where the bread and butter player is to be found.

I agree with most if not all of that. The only point I’m making is: don’t forget about “Bob”.

  • I believe that not everyone is a “casual player” or an “elitist” … there is a middle ground that makes up the vast major of a games population. These guys are what I called “normal players” or “Bob”.

  • You don’t see them on the forums a ton. They don’t have elite street creed and they aren’t a casual squeaker complaining online.

  • They often times are the ones “paying the bills”. They vote with their check books. These “Normal players” are also the most marginalized group.

Woah, did we just start talking about macroeconomics? :slight_smile:

Why not join the Fatshark Discord https://discord.gg/K6gyMpu