Thanks for the nerfs and keeping Vermintide more Vermintide and less Diablo

So I’ve been vocal about my - turns out to be - quite unpopular opinion that many, mostly newcomers who did not play Vermintide 1 too much or at all seem to disagree with. That is, nerfing “power buttons” is a great thing.

I’d like to provide contrast to the “omg stop nerfing everything” voices because I think they are wrong for the wrong reason.

Vermintide by concept, by design down to it’s core is an action game. An action game heavily focusing on melee combat and good team cooperation. That is Vermintide.

Now I’ve seen a lot comments from people and they seem to have the wrong expectation here, but from a fundamental level wrong, this is why I assume they are majority of the ‘cry out loud’ scene big streamers attract.

These people, not familiar with Vermintide and appearantly with the Warhammer Fantasy license either don’t shy away from having a strong voice regardless of not knowing much about the source material, and have strong tendency of seeing things in a more traditional way, such as an elf has to be a ranged god (optional bikini armor applies), that itemization is a system that in their minds live like traditional RPG itemization, same for skills.

You have to understand that Vermintide is closer to Left 4 Dead than Diablo or Overwatch. This isn’t a hero shooter where you are given a selection of heroes who are very strongly designed to be super strong at something and less so in other things. We had no passive skill for a character, no other passives through leveling, no active ability back in Vermintide 1. Not these were weak or meaningless, we had no system for it at all. No passive regeneration, no increased crit chance, nothing.

Vermintide 2 is a sequel to that game, not a new brand. I’m happy for the ability nerfs because it means the developer team wants to keep Vermintide 2 made for the fans of the first game and improve upon the first game, instead of making a PvE Overwatch event. I belive it is the right direction to keep Vermintide faithful to it’s roots, and try to find the golden middle path between adding new RPG elements and keeping personal combat skills and teamwork as the core of the game, where there are no magical PRESS THIS BUTTON TO WIN ability, no combination of items granting a Diablo-style build that passively allows the player to overpower challanges for their choices in a menu instead of pushing themselves 110% to survive in melee combat, dodge, defend, attack at the right moment and have a good formation and strategy with his or her team.

I don’t see too many voicing this kind of opinion here and the huge income of new players having a very different perspective is certainly not helping, the “came from shroud’d stream because this it is the new buzz” type of folk also everywhere like to downvote everything that isn’t matching their views, so I’m just making my humble attempt here to show there are people who stand by Fatshark’s decisions of keeping Vermintide, Vermintide, while expanding upon that.

Not sure if this is good place for it, but people mentioned above also show tendency of liking to overwhelm subreddits and witchhunt people who they don’t see as part of the collective mind, given the Fatshark forums are less popular I’m hoping to have my voice heard here.

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I agree, and I post my comment about nerfs. You can read here:

I rly do want for V2 that it would become GOTY `18. With millions of new players.

But zhurtek - why most of crying ppl are newcomers? Where this world is going?
Why do ppl cry and vine about nerfs to devs instead of trying to find help - ask for advices ect.
j_sat is doing amazing things - one of best players making daily guaided runs for noobies. How cool would be part of it and learn from the best of the best? No better go on cry on forum.
Vermintide is not for eveyone - same as Demon Souls was not - at the beginning it was only for JAP/KR. I was waiting for my copy on ps3 for almost 4 weeks. Tho DS was making SOO GOOD that they make Dark Souls and Bloodborn. Why? Becaose they was HARD. That was the only reason. Do not make Vermintide2 for casual players. OR make it on recruit only so all could play but veteran + should be hard, like rly hard.

I’m on 512 hero power. Yesterday one of my friends bought V2 and I was playing with him on recruit.
My char build is oriented about crit (if I can say like this) on both weapon i have Resourceful Sharpshooter and Resourceful Combatant. (once again this was on recruit but even there it should not happend EVER). I waystalker, We got horde going on us. I had my “F” ready. I shoot. 1 second after i fire away i had my ultimate back. My F (cose of my hero power and recruit) hit like all rats in the horde and it was crit…
I turn back for the horde from other side I shoot F. 1 second after i had my F back and ready to shoot. Yes my English is crap but you read it right. I had 3 active abilities “F” in less that 3 seconds.
It was “cool” like hell I will not say it wasn’t. But how cool if I/you/we feel when we beat this horde standing side by side with friends you struggle so hard, half of you team died…(get downed). After minute, you are last man standing, there is not so many rats left, but you going out of strength, you know you don’t make it so you rush to aid and raise one of your fallen teammates. Oh no you have last hp and this rat is going to hit you, all hope is lost…OH no wait! You where smart and you press block before pressing E. You was manage to ress bardin he jump with furious in his eyes. You died with smile, but that dorf was able to finish them off. Now after saving city you all drinking ale and laugh. Oh no wait better just one shoot with F…

/sorry for my English.

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“If you didn’t play Vermintide one your opinion doesn’t matter” is a completely B.S. stance. And this is coming from someone who did play V1 and enjoyed it enough to buy it for pc and ps

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Active abilities are nice, but they should not affect boss fights as much as they do. They should help with hordes and in tight situations, but the present state of things which allows you to steam roll bosses by combinations of active skills, perks, traits and pots has to change.

I can agree most nerfs were fine, there are a few that were really not needed at all, rapier pistol nerf, but for the most part I’m ok with them making the game hard rather then me having a I win button

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problem is it’s not really harder. it should be harder when you look at the list of changes, but the reality is you can go into a horde right now with a weapon that had 0 cleave before hand and melt them like butter because something has changed with the enemy density. none of the enemies actually stop your weapons anymore and two characters side by side with what used to be “decent” cleaving weapons will mow down a chaos horde like a lawnmower.

i’d like the game to be more like v1 cata difficulty and god knows i hate diablo type stuff (OP was spot on with that comparison) but the people reacting to this stuff have very blatantly not even played it right now or think that because their F button can’t do 40% of a bosses health the class is useless. the enemies are INSANELY fragile right now, you just have to actually fight bosses for once.

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I will say more to that. Difficulties got nerfed hard. Proof?
I do not have any utube video but:
On beta before release while playing on Veteran my bow HEAD shoot even charged one (hold right mouse) do totaly nothing (red shield icon) on full metal chaos warrior. Now after release (same items, same hero power ect) I was able to KILL full metal chaos warrior before he reach me with the same bow.

Thanks for voicing this opinion. I’m in the same camp as you.

I didn’t have a problem in the pre-order beta of enemies stopping my greatsword. I think it was a nice balance on chaos vs skaven (skaven being smaller and so my sword can easily go past them). It was nice to have to use the heavy attack so I can cleave chaos units apart.

Though I think that some things in the nerf camps was just not thought out, I really agree with you. The careers should be there to help with a playstyle, but people are crying that they have to crank up health regen again to survive champion. Truth is, they rely on these things and cry if they get taken away, even though the game is possible without them. Look at VT1 and nobody complained that they needed health regen to survive cataclysm. They should get better in handling their strategies and not hope for passives or fixes to SAVE them (and that includes me). If some careers get weaker overall: GOOD, that means you have to have SKILL, like in VT1 and not STATS like in Diablo.

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This is agree very strongly with!

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Instead of nerfing the hell out of the classes, they could have buffed the enemys again.

At the beginning of closed beta the game was pretty hard and got much easier with open beta. Maybe to easy, but still a little buff for the enemy would have set the score.

With the ammo nerfe they did go really hard on us and the playstyle of ranged classes. Not so much sense in ranged anymore.

You can’t balance like that. Enemies shouldn’t even be considered on the character power scale. If we buff the enemies, the strong classes will end up being the only viable classes for high-difficulty play. It is better to get every class on the same power level. That way everyone is equally effective.

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Ill just leave a silent like for the op here and remove myself from the discussion again. Im glad the game took a step back to its roots and towards “skill based play” and away from “talent based, skill point, potion, ultimate combo based play”.

Its nice if a game is really easy to get into. Its even better if that game has an extremely high skill ceiling. 9 times out of 10 you wont get that skill ceiling if the game is littered with a gazillion features that can stack up to do ridiculous things in place of where player skill should be showing.

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Sycophant. Nobody should defend these nerfs, the lack of testing them, or the way they were added without patch notes or proper communication to paying customers. People like you are the reason why they did it; people like you bend over and take it.

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Lack of testing? How do you think these changes get made? Please tell me about the inner workings of Fatshark’s production team and how they don’t test their own game.

None of the changes they pushed forward with release were tested in Beta, as far as back-end programming level testing goes…who the heck would think that’s what I was insinuating? I feel my comment’s implications should have been common sense.

The beta ended, the public testing is happening in the live build right now. They will continue to iterate and rebalance going forward. You think they should’ve extended the beta another week? You think they don’t push every build thru QA? I’m not sure exactly what it is you were implying about their process, but it doesn’t seem like common sense to me when you start by calling OP a sycophant saying “nobody should defend these nerfs”. Get real, nerfs happen and should be both criticized and defended. You seem to be implying some kind of corporate conspiracy against consumers.

I totally agree.

But the problem is worse. Its going to become a tiered game of newbies who come and disappear and gods with all the right gear and skills. The public games will die off, membership will fall, and the game will have to cater to trying to challenge those with Thor’s hammer.

They turned vt2 into a Monty haul game. Works in a diablo with characters reviving in a few secs but not in a game like vt. Its either change the whole game to adapt it fully to a Monty haul play or get rid of the Monty haul. Vt tries to stradle the middle.

My issue isn’t with you; I’m not going to respond back with targeted insults or engage in mudslinging. We can agree to disagree; I just think those defending the nerfs that were released ‘without’ patch notes on the day of release, well I feel they’re a bunch of enablers.

That’s not the way paying customers should be treated, in my opinion. I appreciate you’re reasonable enough to say that “nerfs happens and should be both criticized and defended,” which is why I don’t want to get into the mud with insults and negativity with a reasonable person. But make not mistake, many of the people I know and played this game with are MAD.

We expect more…and the scope of the changes, they’ve made us simply not want to play anymore.

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If the patch notes are the issue, complain about the lack of patch notes. Fatshark strives for transparency, so I think you’re operating under some negative assumptions about their integrity. It’s highly likely they don’t have someone dedicated to writing these patch notes in extreme detail. They deserve the benefit of the doubt.

If you want civil discourse, don’t start by calling someone a sycophant and saying we’re “bending over”. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and after playing 200 hours of V1 I’ve had no reason to distrust Fatshark in any way.

Consider that Vermintide 1 had none of these “perks”. People played and beat the hardest difficulty without regen, without talents, and without active abilities. The scope of these changes on playability is minuscule. If you now have trouble beating levels, it’s because you don’t see the mistakes you’re making while playing, and you lean on these abilities to carry you.

That’s not to say the changes are perfect, but do they break the game? Absolutely not.

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