Feedback on my Subjective Experience after the latest patch

Here’s my subjective opinion:

Fun has been nerfed. “Grind” (being the opposite of “Fun”) was unintentionally buffed as a result. (Also buggy, unpredictable and downright crazy WTHwazzat were tweaked to significantly higher levels for hopefully unintended reasons).

30 bucks is cheap as hell for a game, I spend that much on a splurge lunch, but my time?
Feels like a waste of time. And that is not where you want a game to be, no matter what the balance of X vs Y or the state of various bugs. I’ve played alphas and betas with so many bugs that you needed a flyswatter to start the game, and they were still “Fun”.

One of the things I liked about Vermintide I was the fact that it was just “Fun” to play, at any level, even if you died horribly. Even if you died horribly on multiple attempts. That’s why I logged over 1000 hours on it, and I know a lot of people have WAY more. Because Fun = Replay. (and DLC purchase you know.)

Somehow Vermintide II has lost that familiar feel of “Fun”. I certainly wasn’t expecting some kind of E-Sport competitive nag-fest. I was actually hoping for more of the same as Vermintide I, but with sprinkles on top. Instead, I’ve gotten an earful of complaints and accusations about this build or that build, this weapon or that weapon, this tactic or that tactic. Most of it is pretty contradictory by the way, and just indicates to me that those players can’t be having that much fun if their game experience can be totally ruined by someone using a weapon or build they don’t approve of. To be fair, I don’t blame them, I think they are just frustrated and fun deprived. I find myself biting back similar comments. (Or maybe they just have issues with perfection and control, I’m not going to judge how they want to spend their time, I just don’t want to share in their angst.)

“The Balance” is an entirely separate but confounding issue. I couldn’t care less about “balance” and green circles in a co-op game. It’s supposed to be co-op team based, but I guess that got lost somewhere in the shuffle? I suppose the idea fails to occur to many people , that in a team based game, if there is supposed to be a primary level of competition, it should not be inside a match between the team members. Maybe, I dunno, between teams, or against the games itself? The game experience does not feel very cooperative lately.

Add all to this that I’m not really sure why a developer would attempt to balance stuff like weapons and talents until the bugs and wrinkles are ironed out of the combat and spawn systems, and this latest patch has become a rather demoralizing experience.

In short, Nerf Grind. Buff Fun. Sc__w Balance.

No I don’t have specifics. I’m not a game designer, I’m a game consumer. I know when something is “Fun” and when it isn’t. I am probably an experienced enough game consumer (Kids, I owned an ORIGINAL PONG console, new out of the box, so shut up and listen to Grandpa ramble.) to differentiate between my expectations based on the previous version, and the actual experience of the current version, and if it deviates to a significant degree. It has indeed deviated. Significantly. (Significantly just means Noticeably, stop getting excited and raising your hand, it is not the same as Majorly.)

As far as “Challenge” is concerned, my expectations would have been that Champion is roughly analogous to Nightmare, and Legend is roughly equivalent to Cataclysm. That has not really been my experience so far, but to be fair, it’s pretty hard to tell with the level of unpredictability in basic combat mechanisms.

I’m not really basing my opinion so much on “Challenge” (Surely, if “Fun” is subjective, then “Challenge” must be as well.) The level of “Fun” should remain the same from Recruit to Legendary. Only the “Challenge” changes. “Challenge” is not the same as “Fun”, it is a sub-component. You can have “Fun” being “Challenged”, as long as the “Challenge” lies within a predictable/expected curve. That has not been my experience. The level of “WTHwazzat, that was unexpected!”, and “Why/How did X happen, it is so far outside the normal game experience it must be a bug/lag!” have recently ruined the idea of “Challenge” as a significant component of “Fun”.

If you have to break “Balance” (whatever the hell that means in a coop game) to fix “Fun” do it. At least until the combat systems and spawn systems are solid. I’m tired of refusing game requests from people who went back to Vermintide I, or god help me, L4D2.

Post Script:
I’m sure there are some players having “Fun” somewhere. You lucky rascals. I’m sure some of you even have enough time to have fun playing AND browse the forums. So good for you, you legion of pedantic, banal …, err I mean fun-loving, sincere, forum followers who are certain to point out that you subjectively are having more fun than a Slaneeshi tentacle spawn in a Bretonian bordello. I applaud you.
And I applaud your originality in refusing to post your own “I’m having lots of fun” topic and decide that it’s a much better idea to pile into this clown car and engage in an epistemological debate about what constitutes “Fun”.
For those who can only respond with L2P, you should consider getting therapy for those nasty anti-social tendencies. Also maybe learn how to comprehend written text and compose a cogent response I suppose. Whatever. I’m out of liquor.

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Agree completely.

With regards to the comparing the difficulty with VT1, Legend is really somewhere between hard and nightmare but it’s rendered artificially insane by an AI director that’s run amuck and needs to be fixed. When you finally get a non-buggy run, Legend is extremely tame… But more often than not the game decides to delete you with silent hordes/patrols, silent specials, ghost enemies/hits, or enemies that spawn directly on top of you. It’s obnoxious. Why they thought it would be a good idea to give the game more chances to screw us when the ai director still isn’t fixed, I don’t know.

I don’t mind dying horribly if it’s deserved or if it’s fair but when it’s the game being buggy over and over again it’s infuriating and it makes me feel like I’m just wasting my time beta testing a game I paid for. E.g… In every Legend run we did today, before getting out of the starting area we had multiple hordes, 1-2 dozen specials, 1-2 dozen elites, and a boss + the boss’ horde, and in most runs this intensity persisted pretty much throughout. That would be super fun in a game where you do a level once and you feel like you’re earning every inch of ground but in a game where I’m going to do the same level a thousand times it’s a slog compared to the fun, fast pace of level progression in VT1 or even pre 1.0.6. The wave timers were completely off and we were getting more specials than elites. It felt like there were three specials alive at all times. Since the patch, we almost always get two of the same special in s group of three. It felt like someone set a 1 where they should have set a 0 and that every deed was turned on. The number of kills/damage we’re getting before even starting these levels is insane compared to where it was at before the patch hit and it’s not in line with what was supposed to be a minor increase in skaven hordes. Something is seriously wrong.

Getting pretty frustrated with the game. 220 hours in and still not a single cosmetic. About 5 red charms but still not a single red weapon I want… Lots of people still haven’t gotten a single red drop. At least in vt1 getting a red weapon you didn’t want, you felt like made progress because you knew you couldn’t get it a second time… No green dust so no crafting equivalent exotics… Which also means reds are extremely important unless someone wants to spend days solo speed running Against the Grain…

Right now the game just feels so disgustingly buggy and the loot system is the worst kind of Skinner box that I’m getting disillusioned. The general flow was much better before 1.0.6. Aside from the welcome improvements, I get the impression they seriously borked something up in the code. It just isn’t running in a “fun” way, as even when the ai director behaved now the levels are just bogged down by tedious hordes. The horde levels were perfect before 1.0.6.

The thing is that aside for a couple of weapons, nearly everything is viable and works well if you know how to use them. The issue is that most of the players are newbs who do not know how to use them and think that no one else are able to use them well, and insist that no one can play off meta weapons or builds. This is a player issue and really there isn’t much to say, if they refuse to listen to explanations, other than ‘git gud’.

These are all bugs that the devs are working on. Once they are fixed legend runs will be pretty nice and possible to clear with little rng if you have a decent team.

I recognize this and I think a lot of the frustration with the bugginess stems from what now feels like very disingenuous patch notes. It’s not nice getting excited reading patch notes then feeling more and more like you’ve been lied to as the “fixed” bugs keep cropping up.

Currently, the game is in a place where champion is too easy and boring even -with- the director bugginess bs but legend is basically pure director rng for experienced players. I still only play legend but it’s grueling arm.

I did not expect such a well written Post when I clicked on the Thread :). Rigth off the bat: I did not play V1 so I can’t comment on the difference between the two games. However I found some points you made interesting and would like comment on them:

This could just be down different devs doing different things. People working on combat or weapon design don’t have the skills necessary to fix bugs so they work on stuff that they can do.

This actually made me smile. Reading/listening/watching devs talk about playtesting that is the No. 1 info they need to know. Most of them want the playetesters to just tell them where and when they had fun or not.

While true, that you want a game to be “fun” (or at least a wortwhile experience) throughout different difficutly settings, the kind of fun you experience can and should change. In the beginning you might have a sense of discovery by trying out new characters, playing maps you haven’t played before etc. This changes to something like overcoming a challenge as you progress.

Balance is in essence a heuristic Designers can use to make their game more fun. You can have a perfectly balanced game that still is not fun. At the core of balance are decisions and options. You can look at a game as series of decisions. A good game can be something like “a series of interesting decisions”.
A Decision requires that there are at least two options to choose from. A potentially interesting decision is on where at least two options are viable.
A viable option can be defined as an option that is at least in as good as any other option in a particular situation. What does “good” mean?
Well, that is tricky since people games for a large variety of reasons like “playing to win” or “playing to fullfil a fantasy” or “playing to relax”. Most commonly “playing to win” is the motivation associated with balance but you can apply the basic principles to other motivations as well.
So at its core “Balance” is about identfying non viable options from a certain perspective which does matter even coop games.

the average match doesn’t really require much cooperation unfortunately, other than when the director spazzes out and throws the entire queue at you. otherwise everyone is a killing machine that mows down everything in their path and somehow snipes a gunner 30 feet away with their shotgun. the green circle competition is about all that’s left for most since otherwise, the most teamwork you need is “let’s go to this corner” in a group of competent players who know how to swing their weapon.

1.05 test phase was a good step towards people having specific roles and relying on each other, but based on the reaction to it and the nerfs that went through to enemies afterwards, i don’t ever see it going in that direction again. the average player mentality will never really change either.

The devs never lied about that, legend is supposed to queue up several specials at once and toss them at you as fast as possible. They merely just reduced the chance of that happening throughout the game and people took it to mean that they won’t face it at all, when it is supposed to happen multiple times each run. Legend is supposed to have extreme difficulty spikes, but a lot of players in legend are simply not capable and are complaining as a result.

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Leaches can still spawn silently and “fun challenge” (read: AI director tries to delete you) special spawns are the only kinds of special spawns now. They may as well just replace elites with specials if this is how they want the game to be.

Had >90% legend win rate pre 1.0.6 in pugs, <10% legend win rate post 1.0.6 in group. In 1.0.5, for a -completed- level, I’d personally get about 1k kills and 10-20k damage… getting about the same for half a level in 1.0.6. This is not functioning as intended or at the very least it’s certainly not working right for everyone, as the descriptions from people on the forums don’t jive.

Silent specials, deed level specials/elites, silent patrols, off-schedule hordes popping directly on top of you in the play area, silent patrols getting dropped on your head, and an AI director run amok in general are not examples of “extreme difficulty spikes” and this is absolutely not what they intended. 1.0.6 QP is considerably worse than “hardest” Legend deeds ever were. It feels like they turned the three deed factors permanently on, instead of off.

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Already confirmed bug, devs are trying to fix. Silent specials, patrols and facepatrols are all bugs that the devs are trying to work out atm. Aside from those my group has been finding legend slightly easier.

Can you please link me that confirmation for patch 1.6? Thank you.

Sure it’s confirmed… they still lied and said it was fixed.

Then your group isn’t bugged and they need to look at wtf is going on, because quickplay Legend is running like it has deed traits active on top of the further bugged director behaviour, specifically more specials, more hordes, bigger hordes, always. Its like deed contamination, but permanent.

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They’ve said repeatedly all over the place that silent specials is a bug and shouldn’t be a thing. I’ve yet to see them say that all silent specials are fixed. It could be bugged because of several different reasons and they might only fix a couple of ways it bugged and there might be another few more ways it could still be bugged.

They did say right in the patch notes that silent leaches was fixed and it was obvious in the first match post-patch that wasn’t true at all. That’s extremely frustrating. It’s easier to deal with things being busted if they aren’t going “it’s fixed now guys” followed by “lolno.”

Can you please give a link where they confirm specials are spawning silently in the current version?

They’ve mentioned it in several places afaik (reddit, stream, etc) that silent specials are not supposed to be a thing. Can’t be bothered to look for the source.

And which patch notes was that? I’ve ctr+f’ed through all the patch notes searching for silent and not gotten any hits. Don’t remember them saying anything about it being fixed either.

“Fixed an issue where the teleport sound of the Lifeleech would sometimes not play for clients.”

Patch 1.0.6 (the part about Enemies)

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1.0.6, verbatim as @Zikitic quoted.

That’s not what I asked for, but it kinda answered my question anyway. Thanks.

Fixed an issue - doesn’t mean that all issues were fixed. Silent specials has been a thing since V1 and the devs still are struggling to solve it all.

Still too man crashes! Not fun after a long run…

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