My thoughts about the state of game with some suggestions

Before anything else let me express that I like this game. It’s easy to get into at the low difficulties and somewhat hard to master when you’re trying to reach for higher difficulties.

I like the variety of playable heroes and careers and I like (mot of) the weapons they have, even though some of them are (still) left forgotten. I like how fluid the combat is and how challenging it can get at higher difficulties. When I first got my hands on the game a year ago when it was launched I loved how challenging the game felt back then. I never enjoyed playing games that are too easy, but Vermintide 2 wasn’t anything like that. It was so hard and challenging to learn those small combat tricks that helped you to survive on higher difficulties and the feeling after each completed mission was so worth it. The game truly gave you the feeling of “pride and accomplishment”.

Playing alone with random people from time to time is decent, but most of the entertainment that I get is when I’m playing with friends. This game is simply made to be played with group of friends.
Most of the maps are awesome, but there are few maps that I dislike and I would rather avoid playing them like the maze type map, the Pit. (the pit was really confusing and annoying to navigate in at first)

(warning, from here on it’s mostly negative. you’ve been warned)

But the game does have few problems and disappointments, more than few actually.

First of all the game has some issues with the network and connectivity. It doesn’t happen to me often, but couple of my friends are constantly having issues with the network and they get disconnected from 1/6 of the missions. That’s way too much for a game that’s been out for almost a year now. I’ve read from the Steam forums that the developers were supposed to deliver dedicated servers to the game, but they failed to keep that promise and they even swept that promise under the rug like it was never there. Granted I don’t follow the forums and discussions all that much, so I can’t tell if this is actually true or not. But if this is then all I can say is that shame on you and don’t make promises that you cannot keep, because it will only bring your company unnecessary negative PR.

The game also has a serious problem with the pace of content updates. It took almost 6 months for Fatshark to bring the 1st content DLC which only offered 2 new maps and some weapon tweaks and nothing more that’s worth mentioning. (it did bring challenges, cosmetics and dailies, but I don’t view them as content).
Then the players had to wait for another ~5 months for the 2nd content DLC. This time they added 3 new maps and couple new weapons, but all those maps are recycled content from the original Vermintide game and the weapons are decent at most (plus it took me a while to realize how to actually get those weapons. clever but annoying).
I don’t mind waiting half a year for each new DLC if they had decent amount of content in them. But giving only 2-3 maps (and several new weapons) on each DLC is simply not decent, not even close. And again, personally I don’t view cosmetics, challenges and dailies as a content. At the most they’re additional side stuff that you can do/acquire while playing the actual content.

Then there’s the current state of the game, it hasn’t really evolved or moved forward. Yes, the game has received multiple updates that fixed/tweaked things and 2 new DLCs, but we have yet to see new heroes being added to the game. We have yet to see new careers being added to the game. We have yet to see a new enemy faction being added to the game. It’s been almost a year since the game was launched and I was expecting to see at least new enemy types such as specials and bosses being added, but nope. Nothing.
The only content that we’ve seen so far (that are worth mentioning) are 5 new maps and that’s it. And to make matters worse, 3 of those 5 maps are recycled resources from the original Vermintide game. Seriously?

The game also has some other minor issues that keeps driving me insane from time to time:

  • Item property rerolling - Why can’t we lock 1 property that we don’t want to be rerolled? Getting the right 2 stats that you want for an item can take a loooooong time sometimes, even with Veteran items.
  • Item trait rerolling - Why do I get the same trait over and over again with each reroll?
  • Loot box distribution - Why can’t we skip the loot box distribution? I don’t want to spend minutes on watching which loot box I get after completing a mission, because I can check that from the Spoils of War.
  • No Private Quickplay option - Why can’t we select Private session prior starting the Quickplay matchmaking? Why do we have to wait until the mission begins to switch the session to private?

At this point let me remind you that I don’t “hate” the game. But any other game it does have it’s own share of things that I don’t like.

What I do like:

  • Combat mechanics
  • Heroes and careers
  • Difficulty curve
  • Extremely fun co-op game with friends

What I don’t like:

  • Lack of (actual) content on each DLC
  • Item property/trait rerolling
  • No private Quickplay option prior to matchmaking
  • Inability to skip loot box distribution screen

What I’m disappointed at:

  • Slow pace in content updates
  • Recycled content in one DLC
  • No new enemy types (specials, elites, bosses) over the past year
  • No new heroes or careers over the past year
    (- Devs promise things, but if they can’t keep them they go silent and even try to hide promises under the rug that they couldn’t keep.)

Suggestions:
There are few things that I’d like to list here, but I’ll ignore the minor ones to keep this short and only list the major ones.

1. New enemy types or even a new enemy faction
The game could use some new enemy types to spice things up or even a new enemy faction like Orcs for example. Fighting the same enemies over and over again gets stale as you grow accustomed to their abilities and tactics how to take them down. Basically the more you face them, the more “no brainer” they become. New specials, elites and bosses would be freshening.

2. New heroes and/or careers to the old ones
There’s nothing wrong with the current hero roster, but playing with the same heroes and careers for a year is slowly getting stale. New careers or even an entirely new hero would definitely spice things up and bring some fresh breeze to the game.

3. No more lackluster DLCs
Personally I wasn’t happy with the 2 DLCs that Fatshark released in the past year. From customer’s point of view 8€ (~8$) is too much for just 2-3 maps (+ few weapons) and the value ratio is way off. I get it that Fatshark is a small indie studio and they have limited amount of time and resources, but as a customer I have to view this from customer’s perspective and 8€ for only couple maps is a bit too much.

4. Content Expansion
Personally I wouldn’t mind paying ~20€ (~20$) for an expansion, if it added at least dozen new maps, new heroes/careers, new weapons, new enemy faction (orc for example) and dozen new enemy types. You have an audience that will give you money if you just bring new valuable content to us. (Make it happen!)

5. QoL improvements
Tweak the item property/trait rerolls, so that players wouldn’t have to spend hours on getting the right properties/traits that they want, depending on how lucky they are.
Add an skip option to the loot box distribution screen, so that players wouldn’t have to watch which loot box they get after completed mission, because they can check that from the Spoils of War.
Add Private Qucikplay option, because there are times when players want to play privately with bots and still get the Quickplay bonus.

6. Over delivering is not a bad thing and be transparent
The way I see it the problem with the modern gaming industry is that companies don’t over deliver content anymore like they used to, you know like CDPR did with the Witcher 3. Again, I get it that Fatshark is a small indie development studio and they have limited time and resources. But over delivering content could give them some positive PR, it would bring them some goodwill, people would talk about them and it could bring even more players to buy their products. Staying on good terms with the community is as important as the actual profit is.

Conclusion:
Let me get this straight, I’m not trying to badmouth the game or Fatshark. I’m just sharing my concerns with the state of this game, because the premise for it a year ago looked so promising, but during the past year almost all my expectations were broken.

Even though the past year was a rocky one and there were disappointments on every corner, I’m still hopeful that Fatshark will do the right thing. They have acquired a solid ground in the marketplace and there’s no limit of what they can achieve with the game if they only put their mind and effort to it and make it happen by moving forward.
Overall, I’m (still) enjoying the game and I’m hopeful to what the future brings to the game and to us.

edit. fixed some typos

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Nice post, but if you dig deeper in this forum you can find a ton of threads with very cool ideas. But you know what? I have been following this forum from the very beginning and I do not recall any of the devs taking part in any discussion. We only hear that from community managers, they read. Rly? I doubt this.

As you said, almost a year passed and we got something that was done with a small amount of effort. Now they are announcing mutators - because the system of deeds sucks, and paintings in fortress, which should be in it from the start of the game (yes, these frames on wall are empty from the game’s premiere)
I do not expect to much, maybe another DLC with 3 maps and bunch of cosmetics and I do not know if this time I will spend my money on “new content” who looks like you said in your’s post.

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The game launched in a . . . troubled state. I don’t know why; maybe they were afraid to launch it late and lose marketing impetus. Maybe they just made a collective mistake. Or maybe they legally had to stick to a time table set by Games Workshop, who are notoriously hands-on with companies they lease their stuff to. We don’t know why the game launched in a poor state, but it took months to fix, unfortunately. The upshot is that it is much healthier now.

There’s good news, though. We’ve got an update coming next week with new weekly challenges and mutators, along with collectibles. And the devs have been working on changing the crafting for some time, they’ve spent time collecting info from the community a few months back. They have also hinted heavily that something very big is coming on Marth 8th - which, if it’s an exciting DLC, that will only be three months since Back to Ubersreik - a pretty average turnaround for DLCs from most games.

Part of the reason they are quiet, I think, is because of a major fiasco early in the game’s history when they published a general roadmap to show what they wanted to do to improve the game. Unfortunately, due to the previously-mentioned issues with bugs, that all had to go by the wayside - and yes, that did include dedicated servers, but since then the devs do seem to have dropped that idea. I recall something being said about it not being technically workable at this point (no idea the validity of this, just what I recall).

Many of your suggestions are very solid - and frankly I hope to see at least a couple new heroes/careers, new enemies/whole factions, and QoL improvements. :slight_smile: I disagree that their DLC model has been lackluster, though. Two or three maps with some new weapons is how many major games work.

However, the most exciting thing is the modding tools. :smiley: Those are going to be released this year (perhaps in March, my guess), and with those players will be able to make custom maps, enemies, weapons, careers, heroes . . . pretty much anything the devs can!

EDIT: In fact, the first test-custom map has been made! :smiley:

@Maddred I think that many of them do look at the forums and reddit. I have seen numerous times that various devs will pop in and talk on a specific topic that needs clarifying, not just Hedge. They just choose to be quiet - a lot of developers do - because when they speak that tends to take over a topic, and the thread gets hijacked.

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The only problem with modding is that they have their own realm, Modded Realm, where all progression and itemization is disabled unless Fatshark approves those mods first so that they can be used on the Official Realm.

Granted, I haven’t used mods since last summer when they first started coming out, so correct me if I’m wrong on this statement.

I enjoy modding my games like anyone else, especially in singleplayer games because there I can do whatever I want with the game. But in multiplayer games if it comes with the price of disabling progression I would not rather use them.

@Jordick I’m going to quote myself in regards to few points of your original post:

Not for me. I do not like mods other than improving graphics and quality of life (btw. things that improve the quality of life should be implemented in the game and not be created by ppl as sanctioned mods).
With all due respect to your work, but this map is one example of why I do not like this type of modification for a simple reason - there is no Warhammer climate. If I wanna play something like that, I choose some other game.

For the rest, FS is a serious company, not a group of amateurs. For me there is no excuse for all mistakes with V2.

One more edit: In the past we had streams with various information about the future of the game. I remember how Victor told what will appear, what will be corrected, etc. Now the streams show how two nice guys playng game, making giveaways and sometimes say something about future but so little that you “want to howl” That’s all and that’s why I doubt the forum is reading by devas and I don’t expect to much about this “big surprise” on March 8

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Various devs pops in to comment on certain topics but it’s quite unusual. hedge is the one browsing this forum, steam and reddit constantly, acting as the link between the community and the developers. That’s his role as a community manager. We also have Julia on this forum acknowledging almost every single thread in the feedback and bug forums by marking them as “not-a-bug”, “feedback”, “acknowledged” and so forth. It wouldn’t benefit anyone if every dev read through every forum post here or on steam or reddit.

Each to their own. Some people don’t mind leaving the Warhammer setting and community made mods is the only way to do so because of GW policy. It’s not like you’re going to end up in a community made map by chance since it’s something you would have to download and enable, and non-lore maps in general wouldn’t even be sanctioned in the first place but only available at the modded realm.

Some of the critique against Fatshark is very well deserved and they surely didn’t handle the community relations in a good way for the most part of the year, but they definitely proven that they’ve learned from those mistakes and that they listen to the community in what they implement and focus on in regard to extra content.

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I’m sorry if I offend someone but community manager is a some kind of a cleaning man/lady for me - their task is to keep order in the forum. And sorry but I have feelings that is their role is limited to push “not-a-bug”, “feedback”, “acknowledged” buttons.
I do not feel that they are a binder between the community and the devs.
I realize that devs are not always able to be on the forum in any matter. However, it would be nice if sometimes they spoke directly on interesting topics, put in his opinion on thread through the community manager.
It would definitely give the good impression and feeling that the community is being heard. And now I think that we only talk to each other about new features, ideas etc. and everything goes into emptiness.

They have not proved anything yet. We will be able to judge this only when we receive this new mysterious content.

Sorry for any spelling mistakes, English is not my native.

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The incredible of V2: it´s the only game in the world where players don´t criticize the game, we only ask for content. If we had more heroes, enemies, maps, weapons and cosmetics for the heroes and the castle nobody would complain. The problem is that they hardly give us any of this.

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I have to make clear that I did not make that modded map (nor was I trying to claim I had). I was only linking to someone else’s thread on reddit.

But you’re taking the wrong thing from that . . . the goal of that modder wasn’t to bring Counterstrike to Vermintide, that was a proof-of-concept, ie showing that it can be done.

It’s fine if you don’t like mods, but community-driven content is a fantastic way to give players more content, making them more involved with each other, and give a game fantastic longevity.

I think it’s easy to say “this shouldn’t have happened”. And to an extent, it’s true. Yet we see it happening in the majority of big game releases. I don’t think it’s incompetence, but tight deadlines and the sheer complexity and cost of major games. Games are far more complex now than they were even just a few years ago. They also are hideously expensive, costing many tens of millions to develop for big titles. Fatshark isn’t a huge company - they’re bigger than “indie” at this point, but they’re still a small company.

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Thx for clarification, maybe I misunderstood something.
No offence but in past and now ppl make awesome things, so showing only that it can be done is pointless because for the wanter, nothing difficult. Even if it does not serve anything more.
I understand that creating games is not a simple process, but if someone starts doing it, they probably should be aware of what can happen. Even if there is a small team of people like FS at the beginning.

Like @SrRaulCL said, me and how I think (I hope) other people don’t criticize the game. All we only want is real content and we will be happy to pay for really good job.

I’m with you in wanting new content.

Don’t dismiss the significance for modding that CS map is. It’s the first time someone has figured out how to create a new map within the game. That’s significant for all future fan-content.

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I think this is the major issue. We have a lot of people issuing what they want (and of course they want it now), and they set their demands from their own understanding of how things work. I’m not saying I have full insight in how the devs work but I have followed the progress and development of this game for about a year, quite intimately. Even if that’s your opinion of what a community manager should be like it doesn’t change the way the Fatshark hierarchy works. I may be wrong but my impression is that pretty much everything is funneled through the community manager.

A direct response to people asking for more development insights has been the developer stream they had a few weeks ago, talking about the game mechanics and the journey the game took even before release, and the upcoming response to the q/a thread posted here and on Reddit (and I guess steam forums, but I haven’t checked) will be senior developers replying to a lot of the questions asked by the community.

I’ sorry you feel this way, but I also hope that it’s not because you don’t feel like you in particular have been heard. What I see is responses based on the community as a whole and not me personally, and I’m very glad to see it.

Devs do not read this forum as is visible from their red time.
They mostly have a few hours of total read time and maybe 10 mins in the last month. Only Hedge and Julia have a bit of reading time.

All devs:
http://forums.fatsharkgames.com/groups/Developer

Community Manager
Community Support
Quality Assurance

Really are the only ones I’ve seen in a long time but yeah they do not concern themselves with anykind of interaction and most certainly not about balance or content. Those are mostly focused on bugs and tech. support.

About real engagement from the devs. I can only recall one dev that used to be here briefly during the closed beta.

But he has vanished ever since.

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Being a bridge between development and community is exactly what a community manager should be, and do.
They are not a moderator, though they frequently do that job, too.
Their task, amongst other things, is to sum up public opinion on one side, and pipe it through to the other side.
At least, in most games I know, and certainly the few I’ve worked on.
That’s why they encourage us to state our points concisely, with descriptive reasoning. Always think about the essence of a thread; Some people write something, discuss. Could you, in the end, sum that up in a few lines that would enable a programmer or game designer to act upon it? If no, then that thread is basically pointless from a (development)progression point of view.

I seem to remember Hedge writing in the past that him or another developer chiming in on a discussion running a very real risk of ending that discussion, as a lone team member carries a lot more weight than most community members by virtue of their function - even though their opinion may indeed be their own.
And if there’s multiple, they either don’t write, or they all write the same, because publicly disagreeing only works to no ones detriment in very few cases. Besides, I can quite understand that some Devs see this as their job, and as much fun as it can be, when at home, they might want to do other things. And if they play games, they might do it with their private account, which isn’t marked as a developer, even if they were to actively and regularly play their own game.

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The community manager does what his title suggests. He manages the community and is the link between us and the Devs. You obviously haven’t been that active on the forums if you don’t know this. There’s many threads where Hedge doesn’t have the answer and tells us he will check with the Devs. He then comes back and gives us the answer. Consider him a go between guy. When it comes to bugs and gfx problems etc, he actually gets the responsible Devs to come into the thread and answer our questions and try to help us.

I’d rather the Devs stay focused on their job instead of interacting with us. And I’m sure the management of FS want this as well. As the Devs are not trained to interact with the community. Hedge most likely has years of experience and probably schooling for his job. The Devs do not, and will and have said things which trigger the community and cause backlash. That’s why nearly all companies have a community Rep and don’t let their workers interact with their consumers. It’s generally a bad idea. Even in the military, we were never allowed to talk to the press and they had a press officer just for that role. Anytime we were interviewed by a local newspaper or TV station, we were given our talking points and not allowed to answer anything else. The reason why, ask a soldier what they’re planning to due on their time off after their training mission. The answer will most likely include getting shít faced and visiting the local “massage parlor”. Not exactly good press.

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I try to stop by from time to time, but yeah - we’re busy clicking away at stuff and trust in the community team to cover more ground then we could ever hope to do. It is really nice to have time to interact with you guys though and stuff like the balancing beta are a bit of a highlight in that regard. Would be awesome to do some more stuff like that.

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With these post we simply show our desire for new content, content new and in quantity.
We are like a child and you have given us a small piece of a delicious cake. Now we want the rest. I hope that on March 8 we will be surprised :wink:

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