For the love of Sigmar, remove qq cancelling from 2h hammer

I really, really hate when I’m forced to use illogical, tedious, and generally annoying actions to get the most out of my chosen weapon set. In CS f.e. you had to switch to knife to make the reload and movement faster. Does it make any sense? No, switching to knife mid reload should cancel it, not make it faster.
Same for 2h hammer qq cancel - how on earth does switching to ranged make me swing 2h weapon faster? Block cancel makes sense - you stop your attack chain and start again. Blocking is a part of weapon’s moveset and block-cancel is a logical gameplay mechanic, that doesn’t force me to learn some weird tricks.
QQ cancelling? It’s so damn game-y, so immersion breaking and isn’t really based on any in-game mechanics and skills, it’s just an exploit.
Yes, some people, who made an effort to learn qq cancelling may be angry, but IMO everyone will eventually benefit, since it’ll make balancing the weapon and game easier.


You guys can find the most important things devs should spend time on…


Do you switch from phone to your keys and back to phone to type faster? :slight_smile:
This is by no means a priority, but it would be nice if this exploit was removed once and for all or lets make every 2 slow h weapon swing speed quick-time-event dependant (would hate this one, but at least it would make more sense than switching to ranged to swing faster :D).


And how do you propose this should be removed?


I don’t agree. Not with the immersion problem but with the core idea.
QQ canceling isn’t the problem. It’s an indicator. QQ canceling 2h Hammers was there since the beginning but no one used it because there were other options that were more effective. With the current state of the stagger meta QQ just seems to be the best working option.
So the problem is not with QQ canceling but with the state of current meta weapon that denies low stagger-high damage weapon.
We had the opposite from the beginning. High damage armor piercing weapons were on the top, and low attack speed stagger weapons were never used.
It seems devs are trying to find the balance between the two and until there is one found, we will have such fluctuations and weird weapon options. Be patient

Then again, Slayer doesn’t have any ranged weapon so while he may melt heavy targets he is weak against ranged enemies and that was the core idea. So can you say with the absolut honesty, that you really care about “immersion in the game” and not just a bit jelly that one slayer took all the green circles of the run?
(green circles btw really IS a problem, it has been said so many times, and that is one of the problems devs should look for before some other minor complaints)


What are you smoking?

He literally made the thread because he thinks it’s a cheesy exploit. Which it is, and I happen to agree with him.

The state of Slayer right now is pathetic compared to what he was before. Having the most “meta” build for him based around an exploit of weapon switching is sad and needs to change. His other weapons desperately need some buffs.


That’s my point. We don’t need to have QQ canceling removed, we need Slayer’s other weapons buffed

Besides, I don’t believe it to be a “cheesy exploit” QQ canceling takes knowledge, skills and practice (although some may use macro for it). So it is a legitimate exploit of legitimate game mechanics. So no cheese here, sorry, rats


The only way I could imagine it working is if there’s a delay between the start of the swing and the end of the swing where you can’t switch weapon.

Which makes the most sense, but will make alternating between a melee and ranged weapon in a fight far less fluid, at least while using a two-handed weapon.

But removing QQ cancelling is indirectly a buff to those other weapons?

Besides, why can’t we do both? Why can’t we both remove QQ cancelling, as well as buffing the weapons that are currently underperforming?


No, removing QQ doesn’t buff other weapons in any way, it just deprives Slayer completely from working options.

Again, we don’t need removing QQ canceling (and potentially ruin weapon switch for everybody else) if we buff other weapons. As I said, QQ canceling was the thing since the release of the Vermintide 2, and nobody cared. But people started complaining about it only now.

I am not a fan of removing and nerfing just because you don’t like something that works. because it makes a game dull and boring, and deprives players from options.
I prefer buffing and balancing instead because it brings new ways to express a player’s playstyle.


I’m playing IB with 2h hammer, so your point is, I’m jealous of green circles of a guy who wasn’t even in the same game as I?
I refuse to learn an otherwise totally useless skill, just so I can be as effective as possible. It’s
Not only bad for my experience, but also generally couterproductive. If we want to have hammer with faster attack - ask devs to make hammer faster. See? So simple!


It is an exploit. Period.

It doesn’t take any “knowledge” or “skill” beyond knowing that it exists and doing it enough to be able to chain it over and over again.

It’s stupid and needs to be removed from the game. And then they need to buff Slayer again. He’s a joke.

I really don’t know what they were smoking when they thought that a character that is literally based on front line melee should only have 100 base health. But whatever it is, it must be really potent.


So a while ago, FS gave an answer regarding their thoughts on QQ canceling. I asked Hedge if I could post their response here, which will help give context to frame my answer:

So basically [we] see it as an outlier skill for high-skilled players that was not part of the original design as a “power-move” but rather as something we needed to ensure was not an super-overly optimal strategy. From the get go we’ve had stuff like wield-cancel cooldowns and different implementations to control it but none of that felt real good since it’s blanket interference with controls. [We] don’t mind a slight improvement for high-skilled players (as people seem to enjoy those lite quirks) just as along as it doesn’t become a basic requirement to succeed throughout all difficulties/progression levels of the game. SO we’re basically keeping tabs on any over exploity QQ windows and tuning them to at most give a smidge of an advantage. Otherwise the main form of chain control should be block-cancelling from a "what the design originally intended.

So do I think QQ cancelling should be removed from 2HH? I don’t.

Macros not withstanding, it is a fun bit of tech to learn. However, my main concern with hammer QQ at the moment is it needs a nerf, not removal, or hammer block canceling needs a buff in order to bring the two back in line. When you have something like QQ or Slayer dual wielding two 2HH and Q canceling and absolutely annihilating everything thrown at it, does the problem start becoming apparent.

For most people, I’d say not QQ canceling your 2HH feels somewhat slow, clunky, and unoptimal, while those who do QQ cancel would say removing it would destroy the weapon.

QQ canceling on 2HH has been around since VT1, but in its current iteration and with what the game is now, it needs some help to fall back in line with block canceling (or only put it a step above) vs where it is now, which seems to be making or breaking the weapon (For example: You can choose to QQ cancel fireball lights, and while your DPS improves, it doesn’t necessarily inhibit how the weapon functions/feels if you don’t use it).

QQing something should feel good…but not that good.


I mean if this is mostly about the 2h hammer which is, in my opinion, too strong because it can stagger like hell and deal decent damage with and without qq cancel, i would suggest to lower the damage on the first light hit? Or do you think that nerf is too harsh?


It could work, but I’m not really a spreadsheeter, so couldn’t tell you one damage number from the next other than “doing this kills stuff very fast and very effectively.”

I was thinking more along the lines of shortening the time to block cancel, but your suggestion might be better than mine. :slight_smile:

This is in fact already present. Essentially all Slayers I see running Cata are at least using this weapon’s QQ cancel at least some of the time. Some dude on Reddit posted a solo Cata run where he literally QQ canceled with the 2HH for the ENTIRE RUN.

If that’s not indicative of a problem then I don’t know what is.


I mean, what else is he gonna do? The rest of his kit isn’t exactly blowing any minds right now. I don’t love the QQ stuff, either, but the rest of what he does is either unreliable or just mediocre.

You can’t compete with how great-at-everything Mercenary is, or how easily sustained Zealot is, or how invincible Ironbreaker is, or the fact that all of these have higher base health and access to reliable ranged weapons(and imo all of their mostly-superior melee options).

This is also to say nothing of Slayer’s leap feeling worse than before. I hate where he’s at right now but they’re not going to buff him to match other careers because there’s already so much overlap in the game, and they’re not about to remove careers(even though i’d love that). Let him QQ, he’s either great with it or outclassed without.


And there you have it folks. My entire point.

QQ cancel is a cheese exploit. The fact that you literally have to depend on it to even make Slayer comparable to other melee classes right now is an utter joke.

He needs serious buffs. He is a complete travesty right now.


I don’t disagree, i’m just not sure what you give him so you don’t end up with him outshining Ironbreaker for another year and a half or stepping on Zealot’s toes. My point is he’s really redundant. Even his two melee slots as a mechanic is a direct nerf because having two melee options, weapon swapping aside, mostly doesn’t matter anymore because the non-Sienna characters all have really strong generalist weapons, especially after two DLC passes adding to the pool, hello Saltzpyre.

He just doesn’t really work at a fundamental level. Not while Zealot and Ironbreaker exist as direct competition and are strictly superior options.

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FS killed the best Slayer setups by forcing him into either 2 1-handed or 2 2-handed weapons. The other talent is simply a lot worse. This needs to get fixed, because right now I can’t even think of using pick + dual axes, because I’m essentially handicapping myself.
Of course on legend “anything goes”, but that’s not the point really.


I do consider QQ canceling to be an exploit, and as such I agree with the OP’s sentiment. But most of the time the technique gives a relatively small advantage with a lot of practice needed and enough risk to not be worth it for most Careers or players (or a macro, but those are another thing entirely).

Where it starts being problematic though, as others have said, is on Slayer. Slayer is extremely heavily weighted on melee (not quite completely anymore with Throwing Axes, but still very heavily); he gets additional benefit from wielding two two-handed weapons; and most relevant for this issue, wielding two 2HH lets him perform the technique with significantly less skill requirement and risk to at least the same benefit as any other Career. Perhaps even slightly more benefit, as pressing Q only once does take less time (and as such, provides even less delay between strikes) than pressing it twice. Without going more into Slayer (the Career has some problems, though I don’t think they’re as major as some people claim), this does give a significant edge in a certain build.

So exploitation of game mechanics or no, this seems to have gotten overly strong on Slayer in particular. For others, I think there’s still enough risk and skill involved that it’s not worth it, but Slayer gets a significant benefit for little effort and risk.