Feedback on problematic melee weapons and suggestions for rebalance

Nicely arrayed set of suggestions. I hope you don’t mind if I chip in some thoughts as well? I won’t comment on everything, just a few of my own thoughts after extensive experience.

And just out of curiosity; have you tried the buffs that just came out on some weapons today? Some of the dual weapons and the Great Axe got some buffs.

I think the Executioner Sword’s overhead is at an okay speed. I would give it back its stronger headshot multiplier (the nerf it just got), but the biggest buff it needs (and this is coming from someone who has used the XSword for hundreds of hours across both games), is that it needs to stagger more enemies, even if it doesn’t damage them. In VT1, it staggered every single enemy hit, though it damaged only five. This was key towards letting its relatively slow attack speed control hordes and function. Or instead, an attack speed increase on the lights would be do great to let it control groups better. I know the overhead seems utter garbo - but after using it long enough, you learn the timing for it well. With the original modifier, it was properly risk/reward; massive damage for a long windup.

I think another possible direction to go with the halberd would be to take away the armor piercing on its basic attacks. This would mean that the double overhead wouldn’t instantly eradicate Stormvermin, and you couldn’t just first attack-cancel into hordes with impunity. You’d actually have to use its charged attacks to deal with armor, then. The double-overhead could stay and could still be useful, just not nearly as useful.

Love your idea for the Kruber/Sienna Arming Sword, because frankly that third attack in the chain IS its best anti-armor attack. For Elf 1-handed sword as well - also yes, please. A faster charge on its heavy would do a lot of good.

As for the Glaive . . . I really wouldn’t want to see it nerfed into the ground. I would keep it the same as it was prior to the current patch except to lower its cleave. At least make it work more for its good armor-piercing.

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I think a more fitting buff that helps it against hordes, while still keeping it a somewhat slow heavy hitter is to increase it’s reach. It feels super janky to have the same range as small 1h weapons.

  • Halberd:
    This weapon is too good at everything. And needs complete reworking.
    Change idea - to make it more “single-target” oriented, requiring crowd controller teammate for safety.
    Overall: less attack speed and slightly longer reach, moderately higher damage.
    Remove Light 1 sweep from Light combo. Instead it starts with light overhead (previously Light 3).
    Light combo is overhead-stab-overhead. Slightly increased reach, reduced attack speeds. Light overheads used to combat armour.
    Push attack is still overhead, but next light attack is stab, not another overhead.
    First Charged attack is changed to stab, still low armor damage, but increased infantry&berserker&monster base damage significantly. 2nd charged attack is sweep, with properties reamining same.

While i agree that it should be more single target, i think they need to have it be more about the stabs, have them be armor piercing as they should. Long range, mid-DPS, high Attack speed, AP stabs.

The charged attacks on the halberd are absolute garbage against armor, none of it’s attacks outside of the overhead are really any good with the only one that has somewhat okay AP being the first light, doing 50% AP. The only way for it to do acceptable damage to armor is doing the push-stab spam.

Perhaps the armor-piercing damage of its heavies could use a buff, then, if they removed AP from its lights.

They’d need a massive to be at all viable, atm they do 5.5 and 6 damage to armor respectively. A glaive light does 7.
But i also really don’t think the halberd needs a nerf to it’s armor pen, that’s the whole role of a halberd, if anything i think it should get worse in it’s horde clear, primarily by removing the first light attack from rotation and keeping horde clear exclusive to the heavies.

That’s a good thought, then, and might work better.

Generally when thinking about balancing the weapons, I try to avoid anything other than numbers tweaks or on/off switches (like armor piercing). Just going by VT1 here, but I don’t think they ever re-did a weapon’s animations, only ever tweaked numbers. It doesn’t mean they won’t now, but I think it is less likely than just tweaks to what already exists.

Here’s to hoping, although they don’t really need to remake the animation, could just have it like the double-chop, have it double stab, then regular overhead, just give it armor pen(0.8+), it’s still weaker doing a lot less damage (even at higher pen), but has it’s purpose.

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I agree with alot of what you wrote.

I think I have having a blast with axe and shield though. I can disable chaos warrior and maulers indefinitely with shield push. combine with a AP teammate, those chaos gits are dropped very easily.

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Axe and Shield are quite good! When I said shield + anything else, I meant specifically on Kruber’s options. I wasn’t clear enough about that, tho, my bad.

Mace and shield is hopeless.

In Vt1, they were both vs horde weapons with different speeds and cleave. They were okay because there weren’t as many heavliy armored dudes around. This time they are not doing enough damage and there are just ridiculously armored CW and bosses around, making them super useless.

IDK, FS can do the same thing here. However, both shield + weapon need some AP buffs.

The thing is, for Kruber, halberd is just better than anything else at everything.

I can think about using mace and shield with huntsman since he can have more ammo for shooting down armored guides. But having halberd instead of mace and shield is just a much better idea.

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Excellent and informed commentary. I like almost all of your suggestions - you seem to have a solid understanding of how the higher-tiered games function. Please continue to provide feedback.

Dual daggers’ moveset was reworked completely at one point, iirc from pretty stabby (and surprisingly difficult to aim in crowds) to the fast, short sweeps we now know. That made them a lot better. So reworked movesets are not unheard of, but they will probably be considered later down the line, and as a lot more work goes to them, tweaking numbers is likely preferred.

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Ah, thanks, I didn’t remember that! I am glad to stand corrected on this.

I detailed the Saltzpyre Weapons here… and why the nerfs need to be removed…

This is an ongoing problem. Its so bad I’ve actually left the game at this point…

Once this is fixed I’ll return… if not well I won’t be.

I’ve been coming back to the forums off and on to check… but that is where I stand at this point.

Why would a strong weapon need a complete reworking? Instead give small buffs to the other weapons to put them on par.

Halberd, imo, is one of the best designed weapons in the game as it rewards the player for actually LEARNING how to use it. Used by a novice it is okay, as the lmb light sequence is a seemingly random array of sweep, stab, overhead. However as you use it more and get comfortable with lmb block canceling and the push to stab x 2 the weapon becomes very strong.

It still has its weaknesses, mainly the needed for dodge dancing and maintaining good spacing in order to not trade hits.

A change to this weapon would be a huge negative to the game in my opinion.

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Don’t you think that if weapon’s heavy attack is almost never used this weapon’s design is kinda bad?

You need to dodge dance with many other weapons, like DnD, Falcion, 1h Sword (elf), etc. But unlike most of weapons in this game Halberd has decent reach, so you can often outrange your opponents, while lot’s of weapons can’t do it.

Yeah, learning the LMB->Block combo and spamming it for the rest of your life.

Blockquote
Yeah, learning the LMB->Block combo and spamming it for the rest of your life.

Yeah, compare that to some other weapons, such as Sword’n’Dagger where distance, timing the two completely different charge attacks, and deliberately push stab heads are what determines its effectiveness.

The halberd (and the Glaive to some extent) are fun weapons, but ligh-block is not what I would call an interesting skill.

Haven’t played salty for yonks and had a go yesterday. What have they done to that poor fella? Witch hunter captain couldn’t fight his way out of a wet paper bag! He was such an anti armour powerhouse in VT1 with his axe this makes me depressed. Even falcion sucks monkey butt.

Shame, innit. I would say the axe is at best decent, but the sacrifice you make, reducing your cleave for higher damage isn’t worth it. It definitely needs to hit harder, same for Bardins axe.

Personally i would buff the executioners charged attack by making you simply walk bit faster while doing it. Something like what elfs spear currently has but not to that extreme. Then maybe slight headshot multiplier increase to really make it headshotting machine.

Hammer/Mace for starter needs to be closer to bardins axe/shield combination in terms of armor penetration. If shields need further buffs its to stagger/CC.

Halberd i honestly think is fine (animation wise currently) but the armor penetration attacks are just in the wrong places and there is literally no reason to use charged attacks because of that.

Rest of the stuff i tend to agree with op and these are just my ideas.

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