Solutions to melee weapon balance

I think it’s fairly clear now that (on Legend) there are the ‘best’ weapons, and then there’s the rest. Halberd for example, is incontrovertibly the best melee weapon for Kruber. On Legend, Sienna’s mace is her only real option, since she has no other significant AP weapon. That’s what it comes down to; armour-piercing. Without AP, you have no hope of dealing out any meaningful DPS in Legend. My suggestions are simple, and don’t require a complete overhaul of the weapon system/adding new animations to attack sequences.

Suggestion #1

Increase the headshot damage multiplier for certain weapons that have no AP, against Stormvermin and Chaos Warriors.
I’m going to use the 1h sword as an example (Kruber, Sienna). On Legend, it has no viability, simply because it cannot do substantial damage to armour, which is in abundance on the highest difficulty. If you could kill a SV in 2-4 headshots, the same as bodyshots from a 1h axe, the weapon would now be viable. NOT overpowered, nor dethroning halberd, glaive or mace as their main AP weapons, but it would be viable. It would also require more skill to deal with armour through headshots, and therefore would feel more rewarding to accomplish.

Suggestion #2

Increase the armour-piercing damage of charged attacks.
Currently, there are not many reasons to use charged attacks on a range of weapons. This time I’m going to use the 2h sword as an example (Victor, Kruber). This weapon is designed to deal with hordes, but not being able to pierce armour effectively makes it useless on Legend, as that is the most important thing to have, and since plenty of AP weapons can already deal with hordes. Again, if this were to be implemented, the damage numbers would have to be less than AP weapons, but high enough for them to deal with SV in less than 5 charged attacks, or risk remaining completely useless.

There are a couple of arguments against these suggestions that I can think of, the first of which is if FS intend the game to be segmented into roles. I generally disagree with this concept, since it means if the AP component of a team is dead, the only remaining play is to run past everything to the next revive spot, and hope for the best. This inevitably leads to people always having to bring their best AP weapons to be as independent as they can, should things go south. Simply, I think armour is too prevalent to confine AP to a role, all heroes should be able to deal with armour since it’s everywhere.

The other argument I can think of is that it makes no sense for a 1h sword slash to damage a Chaos Warrior’s head, when he clearly has a helmet blessed by Nurgle. For this, I have no counter-argument, except that there are many things that aren’t lore-friendly/realistic in Vermintide, and this would be a relatively small concession to balance a variety of non-viable weapons.

TL;DR
Suggestion 1: buff HS multiplier for non-AP weapons like 1h sword.
Suggestion 2: buff charged attack AP damage for non-AP weapons like 1h sword.

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you make good points and I think your suggestions are good. I think implementing them would still leave other weapons like glaive or axe in their AP role, but then at least everyone could manage against armor in a pinch.

I play a lot of foot knight and while I absolutely love the sword and shield, I keep getting frustrated and switching to other things because of armor. The two AP attacks are hidden behind either a bash or a bush and don’t do much damage anyway, so even one shieldvermin is a pain to kill. Make it 2+ stormvermin or Sigmar forbid some chaos warriors and it’s horrible, technically I can kill them but it takes FOREVER and usually a special or horde will come along and overwhelm me.

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I like idea number 1; making them headshot-reliant is a good trade-off for their innate advantages in mobility. Though I still think Kruber’s one-handed sword is always going to be sub-optimal, since its slash is not as good for consistently headshotting as elf’s one-hander’s overhead.

As armoured enemies in the original Vermintide were far fewer and further between, weapons ineffective against armor could still be top tier through mobility and effectiveness against unarmoured. As long as you had a solution for armor in your ranged weapon, you could make do very easily. The prevalence of armour has gone up immensely in Vermintide 2, yet the armour piercing capabilities of many weapons remain the same, roughly speaking. Surely it must be easy to gather from this that these weapons consequently are rendered unviable. New weapons may have been added, but the total amount of playable weapons has gone down, significantly. I agree with everything stated in OP and I believe the suggestions made are sufficient and easily implemented. Laho’s “Swords have a point” also presents interesting solutions, perhaps even preferable solutions in regards specifically to swords, but simply tweaking damage numbers and headshot multipliers would seem the fastest solution, and the faster this issue is resolved the better. Ultimately, a variety in weapons means variety in gameplay, and variety in gameplay means players have more ways to enjoy themselves, which leads to them sticking around longer. These suggestions provide a way to greatly increase variety quickly and easily, so PLS FATSHARK, FIX!

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A lot of weapons are completely useless on legend because their cleave, speed, number of target hits and armor penetration are trash. Except for half a dozen weapons, all others are simply not viable on that difficulty level. They need to be buffed.

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Yep, this makes the 2handed sword for example totally useless.

myself i think the old armour system could do with being thrown out , instead of making some weapons able to ignore it make it so you actually have to hit the unarmoured part with any weapon.
not sure stormvermin would really be that uniform in there outfitting each different rat could be vulnerable in different areas

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Just make me think of that post : Fatshark: Swords have a point

For single handed sword, I think they should add more pierce attack in their kit (like the Kruber Sword and Shield push attack), something that goes through armor. Maybe on the charged attack, first being the actual one (cleave or overhead), and then a thrust.

For 2 handed, maybe something like the thread above, first do an “overhead” thrust (see first pic of the thread), quickly followed up by “murder-blow” where you hit with the handle, dealing less damage, but, being blunt damage, having quite a bit of CC

This game does not allow for “specialized weapons” anymore. If a weapon has 0 crowd control and only AP, you depend on your team too much and cannot contribute to horde killing. If you have not AP and only CC, you are a sitting duck against armour. I don’t mind that, but there should not be “niche” weapons, at least not in melee. Every weapon should have some CC ability and some AA ability. E.g. the spear is good for cc. Reward precision and give it alot more damage on headshots. It would actually help to give weapons a profile if they are more broad and then have a certain shtick.

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It was the post you linked above that prompted me to make these suggestions. The reason I’m not suggesting a complete rework of the swords’ animations and attack cycle design (which I agree would also work) is because it’s far more likely that FS will be able to quickly implement these number adjustments, rather than completely redesigning how swords function in V2.

This thread is also aimed more broadly at all non-viable melee weapons, I just use swords as examples.

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My favorite weapon for asthetic reasons is the hammer and shield, and it is a bummer that i cant use it anymore due to its pathetic damage againsst armor :confused:.

Wide sweeps are nice, but sacrificing both damage AMD armor piercing is just too much, especially when a single armored foe in a horde will shut down your sweep, removing the only minor advantage you have

Also what is the point of having a charged attack that has the same function as the light attack(slash and ‘‘super slash’’)?
Clearly one of them is gonna be better and therefore making the other almost redundant.

I’m still not convinced that every melee weapon in the game should be viable against armor. I think the game is more interesting if I can choose to fully rely on my ranged weapon or my teammates for that.

However, I do believe that there should be no weapons like the halberd that are good at everything, and no weapons like 1h sword that are bad at everything. If halberd is super good against armor, make it bad against hordes. Or let it be good against hordes, but then make it bad against armor. Or make it a jack-of-all trades, viable against hordes and armor but excelling at neither. I believe that this will create a good build diversity, even if we will still have to bring at least ONE weapon (either melee or ranged) that excels at killing armor.

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Of course, and I agree.

The ideal scenario is as you say; that no weapon is useless against any particular type. There will always be some weapons that excel at an area, but at least the weakest weapons will be relevant. Executioner sword is a good example, as it can clear hordes, but not the best at it, and it can deal with armour, and again not the best. The result is a weapon that is a capable of all things but master of none. If you imagine that the attributes of a weapon are sliders, and that if you slide one weapon in favour of AP, then the slider for horde killing is, as a result, lowered. My opinion is that there needs to be a minimum threshold for AP, because once a weapon reaches 0 AP, or there about, it becomes almost useless.

Since making this post in April, I’d now also add that a blanket melee increase in damage to bosses is needed. Melee is already too punishing compared to ranged, at least give melee some added damage to make up for the risk involved, particularly since you also have to worry about dodge-dancing the boss.

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Yep, I couldn’t agree more. Even if the instant 180 degree turns followed by an instant attack get fixed, most melee weapons would still need a DPS increase against bosses.

Yeah, I’m with you on this one. I tend to do a dagger/sword pyromancer. I rely on staff or utility to handle armored enemies. Often though, I just find myself relying on my party to deal with them while I handle CC or specials. Furthermore, on most the legend games that I play, the party seems to recognize my weakness and account for it. I actually like this aspect of play, because I feel like it imparts teamwork… when it doesn’t enforce failure. So yeah, I think fatshark got this aspect right.

Headshots with many weapons don’t get rewarded enough. i like youre first suggestion.
Of course it would be cool if you could stab with the swords.

@Malacar
I think the best solution to balance halberd would be that you cant carry a ranged weapon when you equip it. Its a really big weapon, so it would make sense.

that’s why most people run mace on wizard, because that’s her only melee weapon capable of quickly dealing with armor. couple that with a staff that can handle horde, and she becomes a swiss army knife.

i think it’s balanced tho, because it’s not easy to master, most people will want extra protection against ambushes with swords instead.

I getcha. I tend to run with beam because of it’s general applications. The alt fire does a satisfying stagger for everything but chaos warriors & berserkers; the charged dagger does a stagger too, but with little finishing capacity. Gives me enough time to back away or set up my team. That said, shields are what end up getting me.

I’m trying to develop more love for the mace, but I really like the escape factor on a dagger (with extra stamina). Plus, the resourceful combatant trait (+ Crit Mods) makes it so I can reliably spam the utility, provided there’s some trash to eat. I deal with armor by working along the periphery, eating trash, and shooting (utility) in the general direction of armor when my charge returns (~10 seconds or so). I find the strategy workable in most cases, but when armor surrounds me, I die.

Dagger deals w/ shields better than Mace, in my opinion. Charge Attack - Charge Attack gives you two un-blockable attacks. The first knocks the shield aside, the 2nd is a headshot. The mace you need multiple swings just to break through the shield.

I think dagger is better for BW and Pyro. Mace shines on UC because of the overheat power (breakpoints vs chaos), and the infinite block-attack combo.

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