I’ve noticed what I consider a trend in the discussion of weapons’ pros and cons:
It seems to me that the ability to pierce armor (or break shields on light attacks) has too huge an effect on the game. That you lose too much simply by picking most weapons that don’t have anti-armor attacks.
Kruberd, Glaivrillian, Falchpyre (until recently), 2xBardaxe… These are the best options in the game and to me it’s no coincidence their properties vs. armor.
So many times I’ve seen weapons written off for not having enough AP for legend… Swords, Spear, Shield combos, Mace. Weapons with no armor piercing are simply short of crossing the “uncanny valley” of effectiveness. They may never be good, no matter how well they cleave or push trash mobs.
I understand that high level team coordination yields more viable options for players wishing to use more weapons. But this doesn’t mean the devs can’t or shouldn’t strive to bring the comps for stacks and pugs into congruence, and to make all weapons viable for both if possible. It does however make a solution complicated. For example, buffing the non-AP weapons against armor might work well for pugs but could drastically and rapidly affect stacks.
Is there actually a problem here? A viable solution? This is a discussion topic, please enjoy and be respectful.
I totally agree OP. That is why I think perhaps those weapons that pierce armor very well should be absolutely awful in other respects. The glaive is a great example of a weapon that is great great great vs. armor AND is amazing at cleaving through hordes. That makes the player a one man team essentially. This is a team-based game though and maybe it would be more interesting to have more specialized weapons with their own niche. Or if a weapon is actually good vs. elites/armor AND hordes, then maybe they can make sure that said weapon is not too effective at either. Jack of all trades but master of none, if you will.
So the main problem is not armor damage, though this one is also important, the main problem is poor stagger on non-AP weapons. But somehow AP and stagger values seem to correlate, that what makes anti-armor weapons so popular.
I think the poster you linked makes some good points about the diminishing marginal utility of cleave; namely, that beyond a certain point (4+?) greter cleave makes less and less difference.
But I think there’s a logical fallacy in declaring there is designed correlation between weapons with ideal cleave/stagger and AP and using that to throw up our hands and declare the problem intractable unless stagger mechanics could be changed.
The whole argument they make circumvents what I’m positing here, which is: the demand for Armor Piercing is extremely inelastic. It’s like base of Maslow’s Pyramid - without it you may as well just die. Only after AP is brought to the table can you start considering other traits and finding viability.
I just don’t buy the implication that it’s a coincidence that the designers wove cleave and AP stats into the same items and those are the only viable ones currently. I think it’s far more likely that AP is the meat and potatoes of the melee combat system in the game right now. Maybe we could dissect that further.
Falchion… AP is appropriate and correct. Its only Post Nerf that its all wrong now.
Fat Shark had it right before the Nerf.
(Ie… about half of what the Axe was capable of).
Its designed just like a Machette… which is capable of everything an Axe can do.
Not quite as good… but does the same basic things. And is interchangable with the Axe even to this day.
If you don’t believe that… stop down to any sporting goods store and you’ll find out why they are still there.
EDIT: Its only now POST nerf that they hosed it up.
Flach I agree, Glaive on the other hand is just a different form of axe and should have AP.
But the warpick should AP aswell, but I have no clue if they fixed that yet.
No, you just don’t WANT the Falchion to be… in reality it is… the way they designed it in the game (ie the model), its the same as any Machette, which DOES do the same things as any Axe.
First - in reality, you dont fight mansized rats.
Second - no it doesnt, because a Machete is more a sword with a different center of gravity and not an Axe and swords where never meant to pierce armor with slashes (which are the falchs only movement sets), but with stabs and it physically hurts me that people think this.
Are you honestly comparing chain mail with actual armor, the armor you see in this picture which the rats and CWs use? Does this look like chain mail armor to you?
Do you also know that chainmail was pretty much useless without the gambesons, because chain mail rings were so thin even a normal sword could cut through them?
By your logic, every sword should have AP in this game then.
…but we’ll forgo that… and here’s the actual damage PRE Nerf… captured post 1.05 that I got on both Axe and Falchion ON armor… ie… the way it SHOULD be… and actually represents their relative penetrating power…
Axe Armored target light attack
Body 10.00
Head: 16.00
@Orpheus1772
The Video you have posted. The guy just claims that a Falchion can easely cut throug mail but doesn’t even give us any source for his assumption. Here is a Video with some tests on a proper made piece of chainmail.
Sadly they don’t have a Falchion, but i will talk about that too.
The Video still gives a good impression on how durable proper made and riveted chainmail is.
If you want more Videos, look at ThegnThrand’s channel.
In my opinion the Falchion is a excellent cutting weapon. But cutting weapons are always really bad vs armour. I still think it might be at least a tiny little bit more effectiv than a standart arming sword (if you only consider slashing not stabbing), because they are more stiff and have their point of balance more to the top.
Thanks, but 5 years of beating myself with mates is enough for me, no, Im not an expert, but just because some things in videogames look fancy, doesnt mean it works like it in real life.
Although this is a cusped falch instead of the cleaver one you get in VT2 .
Yes, but was always meant to be more of an anti cloth armor weapon, the problem is the Falch was just S Tier in VT2, sweeps, speed, AP … there was NO reason to take something else except for maybe the Rapier and now that it got adjusted, rightfully so, people complain again.
This is good discussion about realism, but I’m hoping to keep the discussion within the scope of the game.
So for the items in the game that are already armor piercing: Is this the default on all characters for Legend? Is that good for the game? Why?
For the items that are not currently armor piercing: Are they viable in Legend? If not, how could we fix this, i.e. is it better to buff their percentage damage dealt vs. armor, or is it better to make AP weapons worse vs. hordes? Is the fix in the overall game mechanics or applied to specific weapons?
plus w/ drakefires… mmmmmm… so much death
