The state of Armor Piercing

Well guess what…

It does chop through Chainmail… or should I say the modern equivalent the Machette does (The real kind not those light wannabe ones, the actual heavy duty steel ones you buy)…

I can’t test that old Falchion he was wielding in the Video… but I can tell you that one is a LOT more meaty on the end. Its not like some thin bladed Longsword or like the Two Handed Sword you see there… the blade is a LOT thicker and meatier.

So I have no reason to believe it would function any different. There is a reason Falchions were actually used over a Longsword.

The problem in my opinion here is not the weapons but team composition and actual coordination aka random group or buddies you play with.

Because if you know who plays what role - tank, special killer, horde dealer or boss mauler - you can adjust your current loadout accordingly so it doesnt matter if 2 people have no AP weapons when the other 2 have to deal with armoured enemies, sadly, since the only armoury you can use is in the fort, you cant equip what you need when you join a QM game and often enough, randoms dont show or wont tell you what weapons they have and since talents offer next to no alternatives (like actual differences, for example weapon specializations talents , giving extra AP, att speed, damage or special movesets) there isnt much to do here except picking the weapon you feel most comfortable with and hope your team can fill the other role.

Thats the reason why Falch was picked, sure it was kinda a jack of all trades, but this is what made it so great, who cares if weapon Y deals more AP damage when its useless vs hordes?

You also believe axes do nothing against plate, when they are pretty much the bastard child between swords and hammers, of which one was excellent vs plate armour because of how force application works…

I didn’t say that… I said they didn’t do much more than that.

Because its the same principal.

A Falchion is a thick, meaty blade… much thicker and meatier than any Longsword or Two handed Sword, and its designed for the same things the Axe is.

I also told you if you wanted to ACTUALLY pierce plate armor you’d need a real actual War Hammer… which looks more like the Dwarven Pickaxe than an actual Hammer.

The Falchion was fully capable of cutting through Chainmail the same way the Axe was. It was designed specifically to do that. And as I’d said before it wasn’t that much different than using the Axe.

And prior to the Nerf it was well represented by the Damage difference between the two to armored Targets… of which the Axe did Twice the Damage to Armored targets that the Falchion did.

The Nerf was pointless and unnecessary.

Orpheus1772
The problem in my opinion here is not the weapons but team composition and actual coordination aka random group or buddies you play with.
Because if you know who plays what role - tank, special killer, horde dealer or boss mauler - you can adjust your current loadout accordingly so it doesnt matter

I alluded to this in my original post, that there are pugs and there are stacks and they function differently. You seem to suggest that in stacks, players will cover each others’ weaknesses. Is that really what’s happening in the case of Armor Piercing? Or does every player go with Armor Piercing anyway?

I dont think there is enough incentive to choose outside the limitation missing AP imposes (neutered attacks against the most damaging enemies). And I think that by making AP weapons favorable enough against enemies without armor, FS has painted group stacks into a corner, not to mention wasted a lot of time designing move sets that won’t be valuable to long-time players.

I may be wrong, in which case we already see players who choose weapons specifically with_out_ armor piercing because they know that a) their choice is at par for optimal, and b) their teammates will compensate for their weakness as with other well-functioning attributes, such as ranged burst. Anybody care to prove me wrong on this?

@Blagablag
Well i think it is important to have different weapons fullfill different roles. So i don’t like the idear of just making every weapon bether against armour. But i think you should always be able to defeat armoured enemys even with not ap weapons by targeting their weakspots with charged attacks(Like it currently is).
At the moment i play on champion and i think it is really not that hard to defeat armoured enemys with not ap weapons. But i don’t know how it is on legendary.

I also don’t like the idear of making ap weapons trash at dealing with hordes. I think they just should be a bit worse. The Glaive in my opinion is a weapon that is a bit to good at all.

In the end i only know one solution that won’t be very popular :smiley:
Less armoured enemys on the higher difficultys. Increase the difficulty with oter factors.
For exapmle:

  • More Teamdamage with ranged weapons
  • Friendlys stop the projectile of youre ranged weapons.
  • No 360 degree block angle
    and more…
    How would this make non ap weapons more viable? Hordes would get way more dangerous => horde clrearing gets much more important and is more difficult. And because of less elites there wouldn’t be as many situations where a not ap weapon is less viable.
    But i can understand if other people don’t like this idear.

@Orpheus1772
I see you already know that stuff :smiley:
Yeah it was stupid from me to say that falchion is bad against armour because it’s focus is on cutting.
Of course it is quite usefull against gambesons and cloth armour^^.

@Silverquick
You have youre opinion on the falchion and on chainmail and i doubt it is possible to convince you from anything else. I guess you didn’t even watch my video. Of course a random Video in the internet doesn’t proof anything. Still you can take youre informations from it and base youre own oppinion on these informations. So i would like to know where you get the assumption from that a modern machete could chop throug chainmail. So i can rethink my opinion. You say an axe can chop throug chanmail. I disagree with that. Maybe if the chainmail is very bad. but not if it is riveted.

In the second video you can see that a spear can barely make it throug chainmail with a stab.
Im absolutely sure that this has was more chances against mail than a axe. So why dou you think an axe would just chop throug it?

Mostly because I can actually chop through thinner chain, about like the old chainmail level with the current Machette (the real steel kind, not the light wannbe cheapos).

Takes lot of force, but not some two handed chop like charged strike in this game.

And you can actually chop through enough to pierce thinner metal plates. While I don’t have a suit of authentic medieval platemail to test it on, I can tell you its capable of that.

Letting the Rapier sidepistol do jacksht for damage if your arent almost scratching the rats nose instead of just giving it ammo like in VT1 to balance the AP and damage was pointless, this is just people getting angry about getting pushed out of their comfort zone.
In the meantime, the axe is now almost in the same space, thanks to speed buffs, so idk whats the problem here.

They go with armour piercing because they dont trust their grp members - you are correct that its better to have 4 out of 4 AP weapons instead of just 2, incase someone gets downed, corned, etc.
But yes, I also wont deny that the weapons themselves do have an impact, just because some feel better than other - not related on AP topic but for example: I dont go volley crossbow or repeater gun on BH, I hate both weapons, I dont care that they deal more damage on a crit due to the nature of their alt and prefer the normal crossbow that is able to snipe on long range or BoPs, simple because they feel way better.

But at the same time, I dont feel like armoured enemies are that much of a problem - shielded armoured enemies though? Thats a whole different story.

Oh don’t worry about that, I actually completely agree with you on Rapier too…

And I ACTUALLY know how this big circle jerk started… detailed in my comments on THIS thread…

It was a chain reaction of pointless nerfs that completely hosed up the balance between ALL of Saltzpyres weapons… leaving only one left… which of course is WHY you wanted the Falchion Nerfed so bad,…

Otherwise you wouldn’t be saying jack diddly squat about the Falchion… and would realize it was perfectly balanced in the first place… until the other nerfs both accidental and intentional hosed up the entire balance between the weapons.

Maybe it would help if the weapons would all be turned into a niche weapon with maybe exaggerated stats.
An axe does hilarious headshot damage + armor pierce but doesn’t really cleave. A halberd becomes a really stabby long range melee weapon but loses any piercing abilities if a charged attack cleaves through enemies. Shield combos may be the by far best staggering weapons and daggers/rapiers get an innate crit-chance boost. Just some not serious meant examples but maybe you get the idea.
If there are no allrounder weapons any weapon may have a reason to exist because of it’s utility.

Except you could still use the rapier.
Except that you could still use the Axe.
And I guess Flail, but Flail doesnt feel right on someone else than Zealot and after the att speed nerf on his ability, not even that anymore.

The reason why this circle jerk started is not because they nerfed the Rapier sideweapon.
It started because they LISTENED to the cretins complaining about the Rapier sideweapon.

Now i have youre word against the words off several youtubers, some of them studying HEMA and old fighting treatises, with video proofs and links to their sources.
How about that. You give me some more infos on youre Falchion. How long is it, how much does it weight and how big is the blade. Then some infos on the chainmail. How thick are the chains? Riveted or buttet?
How was the setup of youre cutting test. Did the chainmail have a bit space to move? Where did you strike it? How thick was the steel plate you were cutting? Of course a video would be perfect.

@Orpheus1772
How did the Falchion actually get nerfed? When i used it last time (3 days ago) it was really good. What did they change?

Because nobody is replying to my suggestion

I guess i was right and nobody likes my idear :smiley:

Something about the AP damage, but I have to be honest I dont follow the recent patches anymore, since its basically pleasing the crowd instead of actually getting a healthy base game mechanic.
Continuing the discussion from Vermintide 2 - Patch 1.0.7 and 1.0.7.1:

I dont know - removing armoured enemies just removes variety for me, block angles and block in general is bugged anyway and I dont know what you mean with friendlies stopping projectiles.

@Orpheus1772
Not removing them only less armored enemys :smiley:
In V1 with higher difficulty you got the same enemys who just dealt more damage. In V2 you get more elites the higher the difficulty is. That makes ap weapons on higher difficulty extremly important. But i think they should increase the difficulty with other methods than with just throwing armoured enemys at you.
And with frindlys stopping projectiles i mean youre range attacks get stuck in friendlys.
How would this help?
In some situations it would make horde clearing more difficult because you might not get a clear line to shot on the enemys => horde clearing melee weapons get more important

Absolutely,

The Alt-Fire on the Rapier has a 2-3 second reset on it, so you’re not going to rack up some enormous kill total running around shooting things. You can kill more just with the melee strikes as they’re a lot faster.

There was no reason to nerf the Alt-Fire on the Rapier to that extent.

And EVEN back in Beta no Saltzpyre job was racking up enormous amounts of kills (other than perhaps Bounty Hunter)

So all the nerfs were pointless and only served to weaken the overall Saltzpyre character in comparison to other characters. And hosed up the balance of the Saltzpyre weapons as a whole.

After the Axe lost its cleave in 1.05 no one used it anymore because it literally got you killed in a Horde. Prior it wasn’t the best horde weapon, but at least it was passable.

The Falchion was the tweener weapon which was better in a horde than the Axe, but not nearly as good on Armored targets but still passable… well until they recently nerfed this one and removed almost all its armor piercing… so no longer any smooth transition between weapons.

The Rapier after the Beta Alt-Fire Nerf was ONLY good in a horde at that point and useless on Shield Users. And required Charged Shots on Armored targets, and then ONLY the Headshots worked.

The Smooth Transition between all of these weapons which was perfect in Beta… is now broken.

And as to where before it used to be you could pick whichever weapon you needed for a specific type of mission or group playstyle… But that was all broken by these pointless nerfs that have completely hosed up the balance between them all now.

Of course, my bad, not removing but even less, seems boring to me - there is literally no challenge to normal enemies, SVs or shielded troops you encounter occasionally spice the whole thing up.

Considering even after they nerfed FF on legend it still hurts like hell, you shouldnt try to hit friendlies anyway.

Horde clearing right now is easy as hell anyway and the problem arent the hordes but the specials/bosses that might or might not spawn with them.

I feel like maps in general should be more interactive, for example why do we still dont have a boss arena where you can use levers or rocks or whatever to damage enemies?
You can only do so much with a handful of different enemy models to keep people playing.

?
Rapier is the only weapon (I think?) able to hit shield users with the thrusting strong attack, which in itself is super strong on WHC

Remember the times in VT1 a SV patrol striked fear into your hearts? Mostly because they had a relative large healthpool and they were armored.
But with the amount of AP weapons VT2 offers Fatshark went with “bigger and more” introducing shielded SVs and Chaos Warriors.
I have to admit: As I saw the first gameplay trailers where they fought CWs I really thought they would be like slower and meaner rat ogres: Every CW like a boss. But they turned out to be the replacement for the VT1-SVs.
I wish the individual mob would be harder again while reducing the overall mob count. If AP weapons would then be specialized in killing armored enemies while being bad at cleaning hordes … I could live with that.

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So i guess the only way to make anti horde weapons more viable is in making hordes more dangerous.
At least if you don’t want to just make all weapons armour penetrating or all ap weapons trash at dealing with hordes.

I actually don’t think that the amount of ap weapons is the reasons why sv patrols are so easy to deal with.
Mostly when my team wipes out a sv patrol it is because of bombs and active abillitys, like the one bounty hunter has for example.
If you don’t have enough bomb, abillitys or room to constantly dash backwards they are still really dangerous in my opinion.

The problem is, they are already really dangerous, it still angers me how a god damn skaven slave with a shitty club can take 1/3 of my HP bar because scaling WHEN they hit you, but what can you do? Double the amount of slaves that spawn in a horde? Add more specials that are already extremely annoying in hordes because hooks will just grab you through the frontline, globs 360° no scope hitting you behind walls and assassins pinning you down because dodge is useless with the current hitboxes if you dont have a %dodge range increase talent?

And thats why I cant give FS flak for this, its really hard to come up with a proper balance - enemies stacking in themselves, spawning INSIDE you when they climb from a wall you are hugging and generally ignoring dodge ranges and blocks … THATS something I can critize though and should be fixed asap, though.

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