It would be Great if the Markus could have some Armor Piercing/ Shieldbreaking capabilities while also having the Shield. Right now you cant do very little when you encounter A Pack of Shielded Stormvermin or Chaos Warriors (aside from Knocking them over). Basically it would be great if he could be as cool as the Ironbreaker with Shield and Axe.
Cheers
Zarbustibal
Isn’t that sort of thing the whole point of a mace anyway?
Yeah in real life it was designed to dent and break the Armor i think ^^
Well, you’re half way there. Maces such as the one Markus has with his shield were more for concussive blows to the head. They weren’t really great at damaging plate armor below that because they were often thicker and had under-armor to help absorb blows.
Warhammers/hammers with pointed ends, raven’s beak’s, polearms, etc were more used for trying to puncture the plate rather than try to dent it.
That’s not saying that they can’t make the mace in game be armor piercing anyways, it’s not like all the weapons are 100% accurate to their purposes. XD
If you’re going for accuracy then giving it extra headshot damage would be the way to go.
On another note, Markus’ Sword + Shield does 75% damage to armored enemies on its third swing.
Maces are anti-armor weapons. It’s the entire reason they exist, so giving them armor piercing makes sense. More sense than giving it to an axe.
Same strange thing is the dwarven Pickaxe not piercing armor as well O_O PICKAXE…
Yeah, when I first tried it I didn’t check the description of the item, I just assumed that of course the mace would be anti-armor, because that’s what maces are made for.
Mace is pretty good antihorde and CC. If it was too good vs armor it might be OP. Maybe if full armor pen on charge attacks only.
Yes I understand that maces, specifically flanges maces, were good anti-armor historically. But historically you also were not cleaving multiple opponents Dynasty Warriors style with each light strike. Also you typically aimed for the head anyways, even the mace generally got stopped by all the chest armor unpadding after the initial armor.
Mace didnt invalidate armor, it was just better against it than most other weapons. Armor was still highly effective at keeping people safe.
That is correct, maces and war hammers were pretty much developed to counter heavier armors because the Force from blow still carriers to the enemy body, crashing bones, causing tissue damage, internal bleeding and severe pain.
Maces and War Hammer often had a pointy spikes to “bite” into armor (so it won’t glance) transfering the whole Force of a blow into that one place and cause great damage under armor. Blunt weapons don’t need to pierce armor as Force is always transfered and can cause a lot of damage. Reason why people die in crashes or hitting a ground- their skin is intact but the insides are destroyed, that is caused by kinetic impact. They were also relatively small and weight no more than 1,5-2 kg as they already had a lot more kinetic energy due to being tip-heavy instead of balanced like swords, which have considerably less force behind swings.
Example of such “spikes” on blunt weapons:
So yes, Mace should have armor piercing, same as 1h hammer and 2h hammer. Axes should not have it though if we go by history accuracy as axes were weapons that worked the best on light armored opponents and chainmails as it allowed to hack into opponent and cause massive damage. They were not heavy at all (even Dane Axes have very light and thin blades) as it was about speed and momentum focused on heavy-tip weapon to hack into something or slice a deep wound on unarmored opponent. There were not effective vs plate armors as you can’t cut plate armor at all with any melee weapon or hack into it with axe and since axe need relatively “soft” spot to hack into - the round shapes of plates made it mostly glance off without the necessary “bite” to transfer kinetic energy. Axe blades were many times even thiner than swords to not make them too heavy:
1h axe:
Dane Axe or so called 2h axe (yes, there were no stupidly big 2h axes in history, they would be not possible to wield effectively at all, speed > weight always in real life when it comes to melee weapons):
Hence why war hammers, maces, pole axes were created.
Poleaxe:
Also as you can see some war hammer and all poleaxes had a long narrow spike at top to pierce through enemy armor gaps or holes in helmet. Very deadly and painful stabs.
Basicelly any blade-based weapon is totally ineffective against plate armor or even chainmail (expect for axes which can with enough force or medium quality chainmail penetrate rings) as you can’t cut reinforced steel (despite what stupid movies and anime shows) and blunt and heavy weapons like war hammer, maces, poleaxes, halberds (blunt side) were very effective at it.
Honored mention are specially designed long daggers with very narrow blades there were used to pierce through plate armor gaps. Blades were narrow enough and double-edge to be able to cut open a chainmail rings below plate armor too. Since Knight had plate armor, chainmail under it, then padded armor and then skin and muscles it was necessary for such blades to be long to actually reach vital points.
Also two-handed swords (though primary developed to fight cavalery) were also effective due to their weight and blunt force (hence why most weren’t even sharpened well). Though it was not their primary role but they defintelly had more “armor penetration” than 1h axe or Dane Axe :).
Despite what movies try to tell- if you are to battle any sort of semi-well equipped enemy forces (chainmails at least with maybe breastplates and helmets) - swords become worst weapon that you can bring. Of course you could do “murderous blow” with sword or use half-swording technique to try to strike gaps but you’d just be better smashing a guy with mace or hammer.
or to fight through pike formation.
anyway, since we talk Warhammer FB here:
"These men are decked-out with extremely expensive Dwarf-forged Full Plate Armor, and are armed with massive two-handed swords called Zweihanders, weapons so powerful that they have the potential to cleave a fully-armored Knight in two. "
Which is of course fantasy fiction because there is no way any sword could cut reinforced steel Plate Armor.
But we have people wielding 10-20 kg 2h hammers which is totally imposslbe.
But if we talk about actual usage- greatswords (or montante) were not very wide-used weapons as their role were very special.
And you are correct about pick/spear formations.
Hey, I noted that i posted that because we’re in the Warhammer Universe with VT
I know 
I love this part btw:
weapons so powerful that they have the potential to cleave a fully-armored Knight in two
They are even fully automatic and doesn’t require user to perform such task 
If we are getting nuanced about armor pen IRL then honestly it also depends alot on armor quality, thickness, metals used, and metal impurities.
Sure the thickest and most advanced late era stainless steel surfaced plate bounced basically all edges but earlier, thinner plate, with potential lesser metals or metal impurities often held up dramatically less well.
As well plate had weak spots, thinner areas, differing amounts of coverage, and how much depended on the armor and resources of the country/soldier as well as the era and tech at that time. The Estoc was a thrusting sword basically designed to exploit these weaknesses.
An axe for example could indeed go up against some plate relatively effectively, but not others. And axes also started getting armor piercing/defeating spikes.
I want to see someone trying to use estoc to hit gaps between plate armor on highly trained, moving, dodging and blocking target. It’s not that easy at all, even for master swordsman. I was learning fencing for some time and hitting something as narrow as gap in plate armor while being in combat vs moving target is almost impossible if you are not really world top-level.
Also Estoc blade is too flexible to be able to pierce through chainmailrings, a lot of impact would be galnced. Hence why more sturdy, harder blades (like Dagger balde or poleaxe spike) were better at piercing through chainmail.
Also take even medium quality reinforced steel and try to cut it with even best made (best quality steel) axe. There are many tests on YT showing that even less quality steel (as long as it’s reinforced steel as it should be always for armor) is just not cutable.
Hence why Knights were using narrow daggers no estocs because they wanted to get close, do some graple, take enemy down on floor or immobilize him enough to be able to hit that gap. Knights despite what most people think were also trained in basic hand to hand combat that includes grip, leverage, etc.
For example poleaxe spike was usually used after a blunt attack or leverage when enemy was “open” as being as precise to hit small gap in well made plate armor was almost impossible. Not to mention that most well-made plates didn’t even have that much gaps. And under those gaps was chainmail and padded armor
This is still literally the best quality armor reserved for very few troops and nobility.
Most plate troops were using munition armor with less coverage and almost always iron or a marginally stronger alloy.
Basically the full steel plate are chaos warriors and all other armor is comparable to munition armor if you look at it. Regardless of IRL or in more terms for the enemies as presented in game.
Actually, either Shadiversity or Skall, I think Shad though, quoted one Knights preferences for the order he’d weapons from Horseback.
It was something like
Lance -> Longsword -> Estoc
unfortunatly, I Don’t remember what Video it was
Here you can see helmet vs a lot of weapons, including axe, maces and spike on war hammer at the end: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l47Idc7anG4
Nothing pierced through. Also it was against stady target where full force behind swing can be used. In combat you can’t do such strong telegraphic attacks.
This is already addressed in my last reply.
So… when would be this really happened in game? The mace and hammer, even if those are 1h, it would be make sense that they would have a armour piercing. I don’t care even if the damages are low, even 1h axes has an armour piercing (I know 1h axes trade cleave for it, but anyway).
