Still relevant though. The maces and hammers should absolutely be armour-piercing. Which is yet to be fixed.
It becomes a question of how effective light attacks should be.
Should a light swing with a 1handed mace truly have the full benefit of armor penetration? Or should it be locked into the heavy attack? Maybe headshot bonus instead?
But if one does decide to give a weapon armor pen on the light attacks then the question instead becomes “what is the tradeoff?” and looking at Keri´s 1handed axe the answer was cleave which resulted in a niche weapon that i dont think i´ve ever seen anyone use to any real success.
I tried myself and found that i could only use it with the hagbane bow but then it was the bow doing the work…
The twohanders meanwhile are doing well as far as i know? I personally quite like the big hammers and i see people using them.
Well, if we think physics, the hammers and maces should deal damage through armour regardless.
They make dents in the armour and the kinetic force isn’t wholly absorbed, leaving bruises, bleeding or fractures depending on a number of factors. If you hit the head, it’s gonna leave a concussion regardless of how thick the helmet is (and the helmet was historically the heaviest, thickest piece of armour).
I don’t mind reviving a thread like this since it’s still relevant. Anyways, I actually think the mace is kind of fine as is. From my perspective, the light attacks shouldn’t be able to pierce armour since there’s not a lot of force behind them, hence them being called ‘light’ attacks, while the heavy attacks in game do actually kill stuff like stormvermin quite well, especially when hit in the head, since you’re actually putting force behind the blow and doing an overhead swing and going for the head.
Now what doesn’t make sense is that the mace/hammer&shield is literally(?) the absolute worst weapon in the entire game for killing armoured enemies, although that’s more to do with the fact that it has a terrible attack pattern that doesn’t give it good armour piercing attacks.
Yes but how much force does a light attack contain? Without sufficient force behind the strike it´s fair to argue the hit would just bounce off and do not real damage aside from a bruise.
Not all of them but many maces and axes and flails do have armor pen on the light attacks, just not all that much of it.
Exception would be Kruber´s 1handed mace and perhaps Bardin´s 1handed hammer, i am unable to check right now.
In case you don’t understand how the force works, I’m gonna explain it in an easy way.
While the head of the mace isn’t historically very heavy (from 0.5kg to 1.5kg) there’s still a ridiculous amount of destruction behind them. All the energy of the swing is concentrated on a small area, which is arguably how bullets penetrate targets- they’re small, but they’re also fast and energetic.
Now, if you look at Kruber’s flanged mace for instance, I would argue it weighs around 1.5-2kg, which is already more than enough to cave in most of the armour you see in VT2.
Look at Bardin’s one-handed hammers and I would guess 5-6 kg, which would out right cave in most of the armour you see in the game and destroy any organs on the other side.
I second that!
If in case with Chaos Warriors, the game outright says that their armor is “magical”, but in case of Stormvermin, there is not a single reason for such massive hammers to just bounce off like rubber mallets.
No i am well aware but from my perspective you seem to be missing a very crucial part of the question here.
How much force is invested into the hit delivered by a light swing?
I absolutely agree that a heavy attack with say a mace does great damage even to someone wearing armor just as a bullet would.But the trick with a bullet is that it´s a small metal projectile delivered with great force and a shape to augment penetration power.
So a light swing with a hammer? Sure it would hurt but how much damage would it actually deal? The core of the matter lies exactly with the specification of “light swing”.
A light sword swing is terrifying to unarmored opponents because even if a slashing strike is not delivered with great force it will still cut right through anything lacking sufficient resistance. Getting a giant bleeding gash from one´s shoulder to stomach is pretty fatal to most even if the would is not deep.
But a light mace strike to armor? I am not all that convinced it actually accomplishes much unless delivered to the head and even then the damage dealt is highly dependent on what exactly we consider to be light. Although if being generous then i suppose even a light attack could cause damage with bodyblows.
But heck even a somewhat heavier strike should not be terribly useful against the armor Chaos warriors use unless delivered to the right spot, that stuffs way above anything normal.
There is a loading screen tip in the game saying “Chaos Warriors wear magical armor”. I doubt we can argue on how their superarmor should work aside from just being stronger than the normal armor.
So we are probably talking about piercing Stormvermin segmented/chainmail armor. In case with them, judging by the speed and way the hammer light attacks are delivered, even in the most whimpy strike, there would be enough force to leave a serious bruise on the vermin’s body, or cause a crack in the bone.
I hope I don’t come off as a pedant but I strongly disagree that we can’t know how strong a Chaos Armour is. Warhammer has stats for most stuff related to combat in it, as approved by GW in both the RPG editions and in the Army Books to the miniature game. Thus we can fairly easily see how good that armour would be, especially when compared with armour with real life counterparts that can also be found in the Warhammer games.
I’ll not go through every edition but satisfy myself with the 8th edition army books for the Warriors and Chaos and the Empire, in addition to the rules for 2nd edition of the Warhammer Fantasty RPG.
From the army books I can see that both Empire’s Full Plate Armour as well as Chaos Armour grants a saving throw of +4.
In the 2nd edition of WFRP we can see in the core book that a full set of heavy armour, preusumalby plate, is at an armour value of 5, which is the exact same value given to Chaos Armour in the “Tome of Corruption” supplement to the same edition.
Therefore I think that we perfectly well say that in regards to protection offered, a suit of Chaos Armour is about as strong as a suit of full plate. What goes through a full plate will go through a Chaos armour with the same effect to the guy wearing the armour.
Now there are some differences to the Chaos Armour in regards to normal armour. These are that mages can cast magic while wearing said armour, the armour is less encumbering - and perhaps most important for this discussion - grants additional toughness to the wearer by fusing with his, or her, body and “does not imposse the penalties normally associated with heavy armour”.
In my opinion these two last points speaks to me that Chaos Warriors should be fairly quick on their feet in relation to the mass of armour, which I do think they are, and that they should have more hit points than corresponding Chaos infantry which I believe they already have.
Neither of the two points do in my opinion have any additional impact on how a Chaos Armour can protect against a certain weapon, which is stated in their mechanical effect to be the same as a Full Plate Armour.
If all 1H mace / hammer strikes get a nice buff on headshot multiplier it’d be enough. That would also be a buff that makes sense, since - as was said in this thread before - no matter how thick the helmet is, the concussive force will be effective. Mechanically logical, lore-friendly, rewards skill, buffs weaker weapons in exactly the department they need (anti-armor): why not?
You have to understand the concept behind Vermintide’s weapons. As is and was in the first game and is in the second.
Forget everything that was in real life and look at it as game design.
You have dedicated AP weapons that have no cleave. Piercing, cutting weapons.
You have dedicated CC or anti-large number of foes that cleave but cannot have AP. Blunt weapons
Then you have some in-betweeners - versatile - (which were a error to introduce imo) with moderate AP and cleave.
The only exception is the AP heavy attack on light and versatile weapons so that you1re not totally useless against armor. You can kill them too, but slower or rely on party members who can.
Except the fact that all those arguments fall apart as soon as we bring in Executineer’s Sword, Sword and Dagger, and probably a plenty of other weapons, that have superior armor penetrating capabilities to many “dedicated” alternatives, as well as superior waveclear due to a variety of different reasons.
Just because they created imba/op weapons, doesn’t mean that the base concept doesn’t exist.
I don’t think it would be terrible to give it’s light attacks ap, like the falchion, so long as they aren’t full ap. Making it so that they only have armour-piercing properties on the first target cleaved would also help balance it.
Alternatively, the mace could stagger enemies for slightly longer (half a second maybe, adjust for balance ofc). Perhaps only on headshots. Perhaps on bodyshots as well. Could be interesting imo.
Mace and Shield should be armor piercing.
1H Mace needs another thing: tank property on light attacks (or simply more stagger)… It’s a weapon meant to stagger, but at Cataclysm it can stagger just few rats.
The armor damage, on heavy combo, is ok.
Since Kruber’s mace-and-sword has smaller mace than 1h mace, and yet it has a armour piercing dmg. So, I think 1h mace surly should has it too. But not high dmg, just a bit like that samller mace of mace-and-sword. And for a lore wise reason too.
I would opt for a new mechanic, letting the maces (especially the 2H…) cause a slowing effect to armoured enemies… just like maces of old you just cause internal bleeding, shatter some bones and dent the armour so that mobility loss/time between attacks would be greatly reduced … another super fun fact was when an armoured knight survived the initial battering and somehow managed to escape, there was often no way off removing the armour in a safeway so dead would follow like a sardine in a can
Old post, but tabletop stats have never been intended as an accurate representation of lore. Tabletop needs to be balanced, and unless you’ve got some impressive centerpiece units, you need to keep point costs low enough that people can bring a proper army instead of just a few elite dudes.
Chaos warriors and other fancy stuff in fantasy is nerfed a fair bit compared to how they’re represented in most lore stuff. Same deal in 40k, even super elite armies like custodes are significantly weaker than they’re depicted in novels.
If I recall right Gromril armour is a 4+ save as well, and it’s very clearly supposed to be much, much better than standard imperial plate in pretty much any other source.
There’s even a quote from the dwarfs 8th ed armybook supporting that
Known by other races as Silverstone or hammernought armour,the metal the Dwarfs call gromril is the toughest and sturdiest in the world. Armour forged of pure gromril is highly coveted for its protective value and such suits are treasured heirlooms, many of which date back to the Golden Age
It wouldn’t make sense for it to be the “toughest and sturdiest in the world” and treated like a treasured heirloom if the Empire could equip every single knight in stuff that’s just as good.