Elf needs a nerf

[Lord_Giggles]

@darewa

And your reasoning for these statements is?

That SoTT is better than WS, as she has an absurd amount of buffs available and an extremely strong ult on a low cooldown (with a second charge also ticking charge constantly). WS can be better in regards to consistent ranged damage, but it’s unlikely you’d run her for that in a meta comp, as BW and arguably BH/RV with a shotgun do it better.

@darewa

THP traits on Shade and WS are better. SoTT can only match them in survivability if you are bad but play with a good team that feeds your THP through the overcap transfer mechanic

“Shade and WS have better thp if you ignore sott giving the entire team a buff to thp and leeching a huge amount off them”. Very cool point, I love to ignore entire chunks of classes and then compare them.

I don’t play elf in modded much at all, but I’ve had trio runs where I comfortably took 4k damage, and where my hp went from ~40 to full with a single merc ult.

Giving the entire team a solid buff to thp gen while leeching off of them is absurdly strong, you can’t just choose to ignore stuff that doesn’t fit your argument.

@darewa

Now, if you add all of this then you can still make the argument that SotT is a bit ahead of WS in pure melee.

“a bit ahead” I have to assume you’re trolling at this point. WS has zero buffs to melee outside stagger, and has the exact same melee weapon pool.

SoTT on the other hand has her passive, 15% power/15% as, radiant inheritance (which is an absolutely massive buff with solid uptime) and free crits from anyone on the teams ults, with hers being available extremely frequently.

I have no intention of arguing sott vs shade, as they’re both disgustingly broken in a good players hands.

[Frostysir]

@darewa

Shade has moonbow and bloodrazor isn’t spammable.

You can use 2 bloodrazors every 100 seconds at the very least, that´s enough to demolish any dense wave when put together with moonbow.

As for shade also having moonbow? well yes, but it also kinda kills the point of her excellent anti horde ability with cloak of mist. Recharge time does not matter if everything dies in 1-2 casts and a shot or four, which is basically what happens if enemies are dense.

And with cloak of mist you are dropping monster damage compared to CoP if potions are involved.

@darewa

For general use? Yes. With the amount of attacks you’re making in an average game it’s going to be worth a very minor amount of +% crit rate.

Not really? All it takes is having 1 teammate with a spammy ability plus your own and suddenly you´ll be dishing out a ton of crits for no effort.

@darewa

SotT’s increased damage on damaged enemies obviously does nothing on enemies killed in one hit

Which is basically only slaverats? Everything else takes at least 2 unless you are critting or in case of some weapons like the spear, headshotting, but who the heck really maintains more than 60% headshot rate? Even velsix doesnt last i heard.

@darewa

Meanwhile Shade have massive damage from Assassin, massive crit bonuses, and massive backstab bonuses, and around a 50% average crit rate.

Backstab bonuses which do absolutely nothing unless you are backstabing, which you arent unless you are presently using cloak of mist+vanish. Which makes all those crit boosts useless for the duration, or if you are hitting upfront then you arent getting the backstab boosts.

As for on monsters? headshotting legitimately does more damage than backstabbing does even with a build specifically for it.

@darewa

Bloodrazor is “just her ult”. WS and Shade both have better ults. Would shade w/o ult still be better than SotT w/o ult? Maybe.

WS does not have a better ult by default, this presently bugged mess, until its stated that its intended, is thus worse. As for SoT bloodrazor, it can wipe an entire SV patrol if its stacked, by default with no bugs for boosts.

@darewa

Neither moonbow nor bloodrazor as sustainable. Meanwhile hagbane is and bloodshot ult is better than bloodrazor. If WS wants to shoot past her immediate front you just need to jump. Plus if you are actually in deep like that where AoE hagbane isn’t worthwhile because you are surrounded then bloodrazor and moonbow are both completely worthless while you can still spam hagbane in circles.

They are sustainable to the point where by the time they need to recharge then everything that matters is dead on default content.

@darewa

I’m not disputing this but it’s not like strength pots are that uncommon. Any smart group is saving them for monsters/patrols, and if you are Hagbane WS they’ll be handing the strength pot to you.

Playing with premades i presume? This is not my QP experience at all.

@darewa

Strength pot actually adds weirdly little to Moonfire from what I’ve seen, I think the DoT ticks only increase by ~10%. Which is odd because DoT ticks of Hagbane get such a huge boost that they start staggering CWs while under strength pot.

Its not that hagbane gets much more damage against CW´s from the str pot, they just get armor pen allowing them to work in the first place but i am not so sure the damage is there anymore post some nerfs a long while back.

[dannylew8299]

I’m actually not happy with current Shade. I wouldn’t think the RNG being added to Mist and Pain would have took her down a peg so well, but it definitely feels like it.

Like sometimes she’s exactly like old Shade and then sometimes she gets 180 clapped by whatever she’s attacking. Also the whole headshots universally being better and easier to do than backstabs. There’s got to be a better way to do Shade that isn’t arbitrarily making her clunky and unsafe.

[darewa]

@Lord_Giggles

extremely strong ult on a low cooldown (with a second charge also ticking charge constantly).

WS and Shade both have more powerful ults on lower cooldown, even when you take into account radiance for SotT.

@Lord_Giggles

“Shade and WS have better thp if you ignore sott giving the entire team a buff to thp and leeching a huge amount off them”. Very cool point, I love to ignore entire chunks of classes and then compare them.

SotT alone with +25% THP is far worse at generating THP than Shade or WS with their better THP traits. Relying on the rest of your team to be good enough to stay at max health and carry you is bad strategy. Bad players are the ones relying on the rest of their team to be good and carry them rather than the opposite. Good classes are the ones that let you carry bad players.

@Lord_Giggles

I don’t play elf in modded much at all, but I’ve had trio runs where I comfortably took 4k damage, and where my hp went from ~40 to full with a single merc ult.

Curious that you’re basically bragging about how bad you are here and how your much better team carried your class by them staying at full health and not taking damage. btw Shade can go from 40 to full every 10s when she ults and crits everything.

@Lord_Giggles

“a bit ahead” I have to assume you’re trolling at this point. WS has zero buffs to melee outside stagger, and has the exact same melee weapon pool.

SoTT on the other hand has her passive, 15% power/15% as, radiant inheritance (which is an absolutely massive buff with solid uptime) and free crits from anyone on the teams ults, with hers being available extremely frequently.

I have no intention of arguing sott vs shade, as they’re both disgustingly broken in a good players hands.

Against anything aside from horde monsters you should be getting mostly headshots at which point WS’s Assassin will outdamage every damage boost that SotT has combined except for radiant inheritance. Radiant inheritance doesn’t have solid uptime, it lasts for 10s every 60s. With Radiant Inheritance SotT is a bit ahead.

@Frostysir

You can use 2 bloodrazors every 100 seconds at the very least, that´s enough to demolish any dense wave when put together with moonbow.

OK, and WS can use 4 bloodshot ults every 100 seconds. So, WS > SotT? WS’s ult also actually demolishes waves all the time rather than needing to assume the entire wave is grouped up hyperdense on one player, which is a situation that happens maybe 1/4th of the time in real games.

@Frostysir

Not really? All it takes is having 1 teammate with a spammy ability plus your own and suddenly you´ll be dishing out a ton of crits for no effort.

You also dish out tons of crits with +5% crit rate. Now if you specifically build a whole team around spammy ults just to trigger extra crits on SotT then fine, but I’m talking random quick play.

@Frostysir

Which is basically only slaverats? Everything else takes at least 2 unless you are critting or in case of some weapons like the spear, headshotting, but who the heck really maintains more than 60% headshot rate? Even velsix doesnt last i heard.

If you headshot with half your attacks on a horde then Assassin will be worth at least +20% damage boost (technically a 20% crit rate will make it +24%) while SotT gets maybe +30% damage boost on average from her passive and +15% power. How many breakpoints will that help you hit exactly? Meanwhile for anything bigger like storm vermin that you actually intentionally go for headshots on should have a higher headshot rate.

@Frostysir

Backstab bonuses which do absolutely nothing unless you are backstabing, which you arent unless you are presently using cloak of mist+vanish. Which makes all those crit boosts useless for the duration, or if you are hitting upfront then you arent getting the backstab boosts.

As for on monsters? headshotting legitimately does more damage than backstabbing does even with a build specifically for it.

Does any of these change anything? Yes you can’t headshot anything from the back. The damage boosts are still insanely high whether you are in front of something or behind it.

@Frostysir

WS does not have a better ult by default, this presently bugged mess, until its stated that its intended, is thus worse. As for SoT bloodrazor, it can wipe an entire SV patrol if its stacked, by default with no bugs for boosts.

You are talking about a fantasy game that doesn’t exist, I’m talking about the real one.

@Frostysir

Playing with premades i presume? This is not my QP experience at all.

“can I have str pot for monster”

Works 80% of the time. I have 2 people on my friends list who play vermintide, maybe 20% of my games are with them and they both can’t play on Legend without me. So no, no premades.

[Adelion]

@darewa

WS and Shade both have more powerful ults on lower cooldown, even when you take into account radiance for SotT.

I will stay out of the rest of the conversation but there are two points which are irritating me with your argumentation, this being the first one. According to Sister of the Thorn - Kerillian - Vermintide 2 Heroes - Vermintide 2 Careers - Vermintide 2 | Ranalds.Gift, SotT has the lowest cooldown for the career skill of the three discussed careers. And no, WS and Shade career skill is not more powerful. The Wood Nuke is unquestionably the strongest of these three, especially in high pressure/density situations due to the unlimited cleave of it. Not even the bugged eight arrow Trueflight comes close to this. Also, it has a stagger against, everything. So even against bosses, you can easily stagger the boss while both WS and Shade just damage it. And this is before we start discussing Radiant Inheritance which puts more broken on top which also has the same cooldown as Shade’s infiltration.

@darewa

SotT alone with +25% THP is far worse at generating THP than Shade or WS with their better THP traits.

How does this make sense when Shade and Sister of the Thorn literally have the same THP talents?

[Frostysir]

@darewa

OK, and WS can use 4 bloodshot ults every 100 seconds. So, WS > SotT? WS’s ult also actually demolishes waves all the time rather than needing to assume the entire wave is grouped up hyperdense on one player, which is a situation that happens maybe 1/4th of the time in real games.

She´d be permanently in melee to accomplish such an effect, thus wasting most of her damage, even with bloodshot bug in effect that thing is prone to going haywire and hitting nothing or the wrong things.

@darewa

If you headshot with half your attacks on a horde then Assassin will be worth at least +20% damage boost (technically a 20% crit rate will make it +24%) while SotT gets maybe +30% damage boost on average from her passive and +15% power. How many breakpoints will that help you hit exactly? Meanwhile for anything bigger like storm vermin that you actually intentionally go for headshots on should have a higher headshot rate.

Cant say i know for certain how many breakpoints it is absolutely, all i did was play WS then play SoT and note that she carves through hordes in melee faster.

@darewa

Does any of these change anything? Yes you can’t headshot anything from the back. The damage boosts are still insanely high whether you are in front of something or behind it.

Point in case is that you only ever have half of them at any time, and SoT has everything up for nearly no effort more or less always.

Backstabs are powerful but to use effectively you gotta ditch the team which is kind of a demerit and a single wonky hitbox can leave you stranded balls deep in trouble, or you go frontal but then you are just worse than most other melee careers because Shade lacks utility.

@darewa

You are talking about a fantasy game that doesn’t exist, I’m talking about the real one.

I am talking about the game as it were before this part bugged out, pretending it isnt bugged until otherwise is stated doesnt feel like a plan.

@alsozara

So I guess my question then is, is Moonbow’s current shtick fundamentally balanceable? If not what role could it fill instead that could be kept in line without being made irrelevant?

Some damage nerfs and tweaks might be helpful but i also think that to get anywhere without crippling the bow then energy tweaks is the way to go…probably are a few ways to go about it.

[darewa]

@Adelion

I will stay out of the rest of the conversation but there are two points which are irritating me with your argumentation, this being the first one. According to Sister of the Thorn - Kerillian - Vermintide 2 Heroes - Vermintide 2 Careers - Vermintide 2 | Ranalds.Gift, SotT has the lowest cooldown for the career skill of the three discussed careers.

When you take into account the whole build shade ult has a recharge of about 12s while WS ult is about 25s. This is from a combination of talents and the on-hit ult recharge. Notably SotT has no on-hit ult recharge.

@Adelion

And no, WS and Shade career skill is not more powerful. The Wood Nuke is unquestionably the strongest of these three, especially in high pressure/density situations due to the unlimited cleave of it.

It’s stronger only in super dense situations. In average gameplay when a team is surrounded or where enemies are filtering in it’s generally worse overall than WS. Comparing to Shade is obviously a lot more difficult but if you’re talking about the amount of damage you can do to a SV/CW patrol then Shade is overall far ahead unless the SotT is in a very specific situation where the entire patrol can be forced into a ledge where the ult can hit them all.

@Adelion

How does this make sense when Shade and Sister of the Thorn literally have the same THP talents?

Because THP from crits/headshots synergizes with 100% crit rate. Shade survivability is absurdly good, you can regain ~2/3rds of your HP every 12s. Furthermore your cloak can last 6s if you want to play it very safe while soloing, and landing a random vanish backstab or two in between ults allows even more safety.

@Frostysir

She´d be permanently in melee to accomplish such an effect, thus wasting most of her damage, even with bloodshot bug in effect that thing is prone to going haywire and hitting nothing or the wrong things.

True, but if you’re taking 1s out of hitting things to shoot a hagbane then you’re doing it because hagbane is stronger than being in melee, so this isn’t a con to WS but instead a pro. No one would take “Sure x class is fine in melee but its even better shooting things” as a downside.

@Frostysir

Backstabs are powerful but to use effectively you gotta ditch the team which is kind of a demerit and a single wonky hitbox can leave you stranded balls deep in trouble, or you go frontal but then you are just worse than most other melee careers because Shade lacks utility.

In my experience I get backstabs all the time when one of my teammates is backing up and I’m spamming heavies into the back of elites chasing them.

[Frostysir]

@darewa

True, but if you’re taking 1s out of hitting things to shoot a hagbane then you’re doing it because hagbane is stronger than being in melee, so this isn’t a con to WS but instead a pro. No one would take “Sure x class is fine in melee but its even better shooting things” as a downside.

I mean, a bugged ability+talent combo isnt really a good basis for calling someone a strong melee pick, and something would really be bad if SoT was stronger across all builds if WS was investing into ranged business.

Which is kinda nearly the case already for most of her bows vs SoT with critical javelin or just plain moonfire spam.

@darewa

In my experience I get backstabs all the time when one of my teammates is backing up and I’m spamming heavies into the back of elites chasing them.

Well i will admit it is very powerful when it does work, but its also high risk and prone to quick problems for any minor issue. I see way too many shades try it, fail 1 hit and then just get vaporized because they are isolated and among other enemies.

Plus, only a handful of her weapons have truly good boss damage which also kinda limits how well it goes.

[Sleezy]

@darewa

pretty much irrelevant trash except against CWs and monsters.

Maybe on legend and lower. Not sure. But it actually synergies really well with dots applied by Moonfire and BRT so it does provide a lot of value. Impossible to put a number on given the variety of circumstances that could occur.

Also, I’m not going to try to discount shade. It’s insanely powerful. Sister is just better. Aoe delete button on short CD with a second one for free every minute turns out to be pretty strong. Don’t forget 25% uptime on radiant inheritance which is still insane.

[CommissarTyr]

@darewa

When you take into account the whole build shade ult has a recharge of about 12s while WS ult is about 25s. This is from a combination of talents and the on-hit ult recharge. Notably SotT has no on-hit ult recharge.

Not that I disagree on Shade and Waystalker having short cooldowns on their usual builds, but Sister definitely does have on hit cooldown reduction.

[darewa]

Radiant inheritance is 17% uptime since its 10 seconds vs. 60 second radiance recharge, no? You don’t get it with your normal ult, only radiance.

The other thing is that you can’t really look at it that way because in practice you’ll want to save it since if you pop your ult and then radiance 10s before a monster appears then you’ve boned yourself. Shade on the other hand can pop her ult every time its up and have it recharge in between the hearing the monster activate and getting into melee with it.

@CommissarTyr

Not that I disagree on Shade and Waystalker having short cooldowns on their usual builds, but Sister definitely does have on hit cooldown reduction.

You’re right. It’s not on the wiki but I’m not sure why I believed that rather than testing it myself. Maybe I was thinking “radiance doesn’t benefit from on hit” and then logic jumped to “on hit doesn’t work”. With that in mind SotT and WS ults are pretty comparable in strength and spammability imo, the former better at hyperdensity/monsters and the latter better with spread out enemies or if you need to blindly fire in a direction to take out specials among a horde.

[Sleezy]

@darewa

Radiant inheritance is 17% uptime since its 10 seconds vs. 60 second radiance recharge, no? You don’t get it with your normal ult, only radiance.

Yeah I forgot it was nerfed. Used to be 15. I don’t play sister because it ruins the game.

However, your monster scenario is irrelevant because the player decides when the monster comes out. It doesn’t happen randomly. You would only ever need to hold your radiance if you’re walking into a trigger. Even then it’s only a 1 min CD and you can dumpster a monster without it.

[darewa]

A bit presumptuous to assume that everyone has every monster trigger memorized in every map and that the whole team is both communicating and willing to wait for a single character’s ult to be ready. It’s technically true but I highly doubt any groups play this way except for very specific troublesome monster spots.

[Sleezy]

If you don’t know monster triggers just spam it when it’s up. Why would you hold it the whole game just waiting for a monster trigger? That might be the only way to not top damage as a sister.

[darewa]

Point is that you can’t really just say x% uptime like its a useful stat, because either you end up holding a bit or you are spamming and can’t use it when it is most needed (patrols or monster). Shade is different in that her ult recharges so quickly that using it on cooldown presents next to no issue with not having it up when needed.

And frankly I have no trouble being top damage as any class, 95% of the time I’ll get most/all the green circles regardless of what I’m playing. Which is part of why I believe classes are generally fine and balanced and people who can’t get green circles have skill issues.

[OrsonMaxwell]

@darewa

And frankly I have no trouble being top damage as any class, 95% of the time I’ll get most/all the green circles regardless of what I’m playing. Which is part of why I believe classes are generally fine and balanced and people who can’t get green circles have skill issues.

I think we can conclude this argument on this glorious note

[Lord_Giggles]

nvm actually, no point posting all this, your posts make my point for me

[semn007]

I’m surprised the topic died down.
SoTT is (almost) as broken as she used to be.
Conc pot+ult and throw spears to your heart’s intent.

[Adelion]

Well, the topic has been discussed to death. That’s why it died down. Everything has been said, perspectives have been traded. The FS internal stats should emphasize the issue further. The developers are aware but don’t seem to care enough to do shotgun-balancing. Personally I say, better overnerf than not doing anything at all. Although it will be impossible to overnerf this stuff.

At this point the community can’t do much other than waiting and occassionally remind that the problem persists.

[OrsonMaxwell]

What is there left to discuss? Yes, elf needs a nerf. Noone here can actually nerf her, so…