Elf needs a nerf

I mean, in a way she’d be more balanced if you could bring 4 sott’s. Then she’d be the same as all the other members of the group. Maybe that’s the answer.


And lastly, buff enemies to match SotT. I think that’s a pretty good idea. Grudge marks for every regular mob.


Teleporting bestigor charges. It’d be like an episode of DBZ.

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Illusionist Shieldbreaker on all mobs

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Rampart blightstormers plz kktx


Illusionist teleporting invincible assassins & leeches & packmasters ._.

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you forgot RELENTLESS :joy:

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And your reasoning for these statements is?

Assassin alone IMO gives similar melee capability compared to smiter + 15% power from SoTT, and Shade has better damage boosts ontop of that. THP traits on Shade and WS are better. SoTT can only match them in survivability if you are bad but play with a good team that feeds your THP through the overcap transfer mechanic, which is the opposite of a good idea/class. I’d also rather have both the WS and Shade’s ulting over SoTT ult, with WS just needing a Str pot to delete bosses.

In general if I’m playing with QP and I need to hard carry an awful team through Cata then I’m going to choose Shade 100% of the time. If I’m going to risk assuming they are mildly competent then I’d pick WS and delete half the enemies before they come near us making for a trivial casual game.

I’ll admit though that when I run with bots I put kerillian on SoTT because it’s the best for AI + the team buff.

The only consistent damage boosts shade has is the 30% crit damage talent or the stacking headshot bonus damage one…cloak of mist and cloak of pain both have their pros and cons vs different enemies.

SoT? Powerboost, passive damage boost against damaged enemies, radiance, doomsight, bloodrazor. Works against everything and anything with no downsides.

Boss damage? SoT with fully stacked deck is only a bit slower than a cloak of pain shade with a conc pot in killing monsters, faster even when dealing with trolls because those drain too much conc time. Hagbane stalker with a strength pot is a bit behind both.

Patrols? Bloodshot waystalker with a conc pot might be better against non CW patrols but against those its SoT who comes ontop.

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Cloak of Mist is the most powerful steroid in the game, period.

It is the biggest singular boost but i wouldnt say that it lets her to the most damage even then, Shade is always going to be limited by her weapon and lvl 30 row choice, for instance, spear isnt bad against anything except shields but it´s also not amazing against anything.

You take that and start stabbing away at a monster with cloak of mist but then you are instantly doing enough damage to get aggro which cuts your DPS right away unless its a very slow and silly monster like the troll.

As for anti horde? One bloodrazor from a Sot can instantly wipe a hyperdense wave, nothing shade does except bombing or maybe moonfire can match that.

Oh and if SoT has stacked doomsight then she basically has cloak of mist on anyway.

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Sure but after that bloodrazor, then what ? You’re the one saying hagbane > moonbow because of its higher uptime :wink:
CoM is 100% crit with about 50% uptime in high density (4s duration and ~8s cd).

Use another bloodrazor to wipe the second wave too :wink:

But after that? Lose out on DPS until the 4th wave then wipe that before finally just falling behind if a fight lasts that long. Provided you dont have doomsight stacked and kill everything with crits from there.

Something like a slayer or a zealot can make things a bit weird if they manage to hit things and get rolling too in the meanwhile.

To be fair, I agree with you, only in the context of a patrol. The amount of DoT a sister with a moonbow can put down is so stupid it becomes funny…

CoM Shade > SotT for hordes imo.

Not on monsters then? I figured that shade would end up with at least some downtime while SoT just does not stop before the monsters is dead. At least that´s how i wound up with daggers since i kept getting aggro and had to stop hitting.

And yes, the DPS is nuts.

Cloak of Mist shade has at least ~33% uptime on 100% crit rate which is insanely ahead of anything SoTT has. Assassin is a fairly consistent 40% damage boost and you have a massive damage boost for hitting things from behind.

SotT’s damage boost against damaged enemies is pretty much irrelevant trash except against CWs and monsters. Assumptions that it gives +25% damage overall are incredibly untrue since damage comes in lumps and the majority of enemies won’t see an effective reduction in number of hits to kill. Doomsight is unreliable and very weak compared to the amount of attacks going on in a game. Bloodrazor is just her ult. The only truly good damage boost she has is is radiant inheritance.

Now, if you add all of this then you can still make the argument that SotT is a bit ahead of WS in pure melee. But WS is obviously a ranged class, and when you take into account WS firing a blood shot hagbane in melee every 5s it’s not even close how much better WS handles both hordes and hordes with elites mixed in.

So, SotT is worse than Shade (note that Shade is also far more likely to have their ult ready while SotT might need to wait 60s to get her radiance back) and only marginally better than WS, except WS can still do it just fine if the monster decides to path away or other dumb crap monsters do. I’d say this is a solid loss for SotT in both instances.

Aside from getting the whole CW patrol on a ledge with SotT I struggle to see how SotT is beating Shade or WS here. WS Hagbane w/ Str stun locks CW patrols to death while Shade w/ Conc solos half the patrol before she is visible again.

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Not really instantly, usually you get to unload all your crits as shade. Then you tango with the monster for ~10s (nothing wrong with getting aggro), then go for the finishing round.

Moonfire definitely can match it, and a tactic for shade is to cloak in melee and use that brief respite to charge a full moonbow shot, something a SotT can’t really do safely. This doesn’t even penalize you with cloak of mist.

Also hagbane obviously shreds hyperdense waves with every shot but that’s also obviously WS. I pray for the day Bloodfetcher gets buffed.

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High uptime on crits? Yeah on hordes sure, but hordes get demolished in moments by moonbow or bloodrazor anyhow. On monsters? Everyone will use abilities at which point SoT will basically have as many crits as shade but also her own kit ontop of that.

Doomsight is unreliable and weak ._.

No reduction in number of hits? Between her power boost and that i cant say my experience went like so with her at all, and bloodrazor isnt “just her ult”

Except the problem here is that SoT has moonbow and bloodrazor, any elite in a horde just dies and she really is much stronger in melee. Meanwhile if WS actually gets into melee with elites&mobs then she will only be shooting her immediate front.

Note that i wrote cloak of pain with a conc pot, cloak of mist is just much worse is most cases, and if monster pathing is an issue then both SoT and shade suck equally, even WS can suck if the monster jumps out of sight during her pots or something.

WS doesnt have amazing boss damage with any bow except hagbane, and even with it she needs strength pot to shine which isnt certain either.

WS cannot stunlock a whole CW patrol to death on a single str pot, that doesnt happen as far as i know. She might damage them sure, but she wont kill em which strength pot SoT with moonfire does.

I usually get like 3 hits off then the monster instantly turns on me unless its getting stunlocked by someone else.

Charging that bow is pretty easy though, it isnt much of a merit, the only time it´d really matter is if you are so deep in enemies with elites that you cant easily disengage but…SoT just kills any such packing instantly with bloodrazor before its a problem. Elites basically do not exist infront of her in normal cata.

Shade has moonbow and bloodrazor isn’t spammable. From this and the rest of your post you seem to think that SotT’s ult recharges in 10s like Cloak of Mist Shade does. It doesn’t. At best it’s a 30s recharge if you combine both her ult + radiance, except it’s much worse in practice because SotT doesn’t get ult recharge by hitting things in melee. In practice SotT is actually slower than WS’s apparent 56s ult recharge time, because a WS in melee recharges in about 25s. And radiant inheritance, the best part of being SotT, only works on the radiance which is on the 60s timer.

For general use? Yes. With the amount of attacks you’re making in an average game it’s going to be worth a very minor amount of +% crit rate.

SotT’s increased damage on damaged enemies obviously does nothing on enemies killed in one hit and almost always does nothing on enemies killed in 2 (only if they would normally be killed in 3 just barely). It’s only on enemies that normally take 4+ attacks where it can be said to start being worth 10-15% damage on average.

Meanwhile Shade have massive damage from Assassin, massive crit bonuses, and massive backstab bonuses, and around a 50% average crit rate.

Bloodrazor is “just her ult”. WS and Shade both have better ults. Would shade w/o ult still be better than SotT w/o ult? Maybe.

Neither moonbow nor bloodrazor as sustainable. Meanwhile hagbane is and bloodshot ult is better than bloodrazor. If WS wants to shoot past her immediate front you just need to jump. Plus if you are actually in deep like that where AoE hagbane isn’t worthwhile because you are surrounded then bloodrazor and moonbow are both completely worthless while you can still spam hagbane in circles.

I’m not disputing this but it’s not like strength pots are that uncommon. Any smart group is saving them for monsters/patrols, and if you are Hagbane WS they’ll be handing the strength pot to you.

CWs die in some very paltry number of strength hagbane arrows. The monster spawner mod crashes on me atm so I can’t make an easy test, but I can definitely assure you that a strength pot hagbane can do way more than strength pot moonfire. Strength pot actually adds weirdly little to Moonfire from what I’ve seen, I think the DoT ticks only increase by ~10%. Which is odd because DoT ticks of Hagbane get such a huge boost that they start staggering CWs while under strength pot.

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Hagbane on its own has terrible monster damage.
Str hagbane becomes insane. I don’t know why but hagbane’s damage is overly enhanced by that potion, at least way more than what I experience with any other weapon.

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