Moonfire Bow is Overpowered

Nah I wasn’t implying that, I was implying a lot of your posts read like copypastas

I mean I agree these communities do tend towards circle jerk, but if you look around you’ll see there’s plenty of widely disputed topics amongst forum regulars. Some things, like Moonbow, tend to be points of agreement, I would argue simply because they’re so egregious almost anyone with enough time in the game will quickly come to a similar conclusion. Anyway this is an aside, so I won’t spend any longer on it. Couldn’t really let that snipe just slide either though.

Fair to point out I haven’t really engaged on the key points. As you can see, this thread is very long, and most of us who have been posting here since the start of the thread are just generally fatigued of the topic at this point. But let me try and more seriously engage on the main topic, Moonbow itself. Talk of other weapons like SnS is best left to threads where it’s less tangential.

First let me link you to @FrivolousWizard’s math for Moonbow dps much higher in this thread:

To be honest I find the estimate of how many targets you’re hitting at once with Moonbow way too generous, but even if we’re especialy miserly and cut that down to 30% of the value listed, the dps is still… well pretty remarkable honestly.

Now this gets to my real issue with Moonbow. Not that it allows a ranged class to output this kind of ranged DPS (they already mostly do that), but that it allows already strong melee classes like HM and Shade to output this kind of ranged DPS, while still getting all the benefits of a melee kit. Some will argue that if you’re an absolute headshot god, you can do similarly or better with a Conservative Shooter longbow, but I think that’s an unconvincing defence personally. Firstly, even if we assume such a godly consistency of ranged headshots is reasonable, you still can’t discount the extra time and care needed for each shot to guarantee a headshot. For 0 investment, on Cata, you can freely body shot any special and the vast majority of elites with basically no time or effort, and they are guaranteed dead within the next few seconds. Most likely they were staggered by the initial shot, then recovered from staggering only to die before being able to make any significant action.

To top this all off if you manage your energy well you can get a ridiculous amount of general damage, as outlined by the post I linked above. The only reason you’d really need to stockpile all your energy is when you’re the only person on your team special sniping, which hey it happens, but it’s probably not a situation the game should be balanced around.

Moonbow is significantly overpowered compared to what is accessible by melee classes otherwise. The question of whether or not other weapons are too weak is best left for a different thread. Start one yourself is that is a topic you want to delve into.

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I agree with almost everything said about the Moonfire bow, but I think a smaller change in damage closer to 15% less, is more appropriate, then just boost some of the other ranged weapons so that comparatively, they’re better at taking down specials quickly. Really, in many cases like these, I think it’s more that, by comparison to things like Moonfire that perform exceedingly well at taking down specials and elites quickly, many weapons are weaker that need a buff (maybe nothing quite so strong, but to be a bit better), but that’s a topic for another thread.

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15% wont actually do anything XD

You´d have to cut out about 90-100 damage from the 170-180 bodyshot damage to make it stop oneshotting the bulkiest normal enemies on bodyshots, and even then it´d still kill the majority of them and leave these guys alive with a few health each.

Despite removing half or more of the damage.

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That’s because essentially from about 2 people I keep reading, “my experience is different, I have a lot of experience, take my word for it”, so I respond about the same.

I think the topic of other things possibly being underpowered is derailing this thread, so I’ll start a new topic on it. We have about 5 or 6 people here who disagree with me, that should be enough to get things started.

It’s honestly kinda tricky to balance with just damage changes. How do you get it in a place where it’s not just lazy body shot longbow + bonus AoE, or low skill floor but inferior longbow + bonus AoE. I don’t know how much room for a unique identity there is within its current design space. If we’re gonna go with just number tweaks, I’d be more inclined to tinker with energy consumption/regen rate. At least burst damage with lower consistent DPS is kind of an identity that can have a niche, but it’s still gonna be incredibly hard to balance across WS vs melee classes.

So I guess my question then is, is Moonbow’s current shtick fundamentally balanceable? If not what role could it fill instead that could be kept in line without being made irrelevant?

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Yes, I forgot to add that with the 15% damage decrease, as I’ve said, I think you can spam charged shots too often. I think 3 charged shots max is good, with slower regen, and of course, I also think you can sometimes balance OP weapons by making others a bit better.

In the context of elf, none of her ranged really needs to be a bit better.

Even the M4 bow is ok, it’s just hilariously locked to Shade who can’t even use it.

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This, I’d agree with. Most of Killian’s ranged and melee weapons are fairly strong. It’s just the Moonfire bow and Javelins that stand out to me. In Legend and Cata, I’d say the swift bow is not so great, almost useless in Cata. If you use it on Champion, it is way better than every other bow, it can one-shot elites.

Is the fact that its unlimited ammo not a factor anymore? Sure it does not need to be in the range of bardins flame pistols damage wise but even if it was really similar or little bit worse compared to longbow in terms of damage, I would still see a use for it.
Its still aoe and ammunition you never have to care for.

Longbow was already considered one of the best ranged weapons in the game before javelin/moonfire was introduced, while hagbane can still be problematic with WS. Swiftbow is also completly workable in legend while being bit trollish on cata.

So in context of this, why on earth do you think the others need to be buffed? Its clearly 2 outliers that are easier to balance by just tweaking them down a notch.

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I’ll cover this more in another topic, but Killian isn’t the best example since most of her stuff is fairly effective. I wouldn’t use the swift-bow in legend over any of her other ranged weapons unless you’re playing Waystalker, but even still, there are better options.

There is so much to agree with within that post. So, I’ll start with this one. The argument never convinced me either because as you said, you can’t compare the need for headshotting skill- and timewise needed for Longbow to come close to the same results of unmotivated bodyshotting of Moonfire Bow. If someone is able to reliably headshot specials and elites every 2 seconds then I am impressed. If someone bodyshots specials and elites every 2 seconds then I am annoyed. Sure, Moonfire Bow has a slight delay in damage but there are very few enemies in the game which can make something out of these seconds.

Another argument which didn’t convince me either. The official realm has rarely situations where this much pressure is actually existing. Maybe a few instance in Chaos Wastes. But the balance should never be centered around: How to make a weapon that a single player can cover the job of the whole team.

Yea, this is a thing to consider. I do not think that the solution should be in tying the DoT more to headshots. It will get more similar to Longbow then. I am not even sure if a total damage nerf is required. I think there should be other solutions be pursued. The following is mainly centered around charged shots as uncharged and half-charged may need indeed some damage nerfs. For the charged shots what annoys me the most though is the spammability. Weapons this strong should not be spammable (looking at you Javelin). As such most solutions from my side center somehow around to reduce the spamming of the weapon. Right out of my head, I would consider a few options which could work (obviously tweaking needed to find the mediocre middle ground every weapon should have).

  • Option 1: The solution I already suggested in the past. Slow down the application time of the DoT significantly. Speaking by a factor of three or more. Like this, the bow becomes less desirable to be used in close and middel quarters. The bow would best be used for enemies farer away, making it more a look-out weapon, to be used in a more tactical manner and harder to aim as enemies appear smaller in the distance. Would also still be feasible in close-quarter in high density situations where the DoT supports the melee play but does not outright replace it (because faster and higher). It would still work well against hordes and elites but would lose ground as special killer as they have means of reaching player from range or fast.

  • Option 2: Make it more similar in the ammo department than actual ammo weapons to reward tactical choices. This means: Leave the damage as it is for charged shots, increase the energy bar to allow up to 25 consecutive charged shots but reduce the energy recovery significantly so that the energy equivalent of 1 charged shot needs 1 minute to recharge. With a playtime of 25 minutes for a map this would result in a maximum of 50 charged shots. This would give you an unlimited ammo weapon but would punish spam while also ensuring that you can use the bow in high pressure situations but would have to stay low afterwards. With proper adjustment of the uncharged shots (in terms of damage of energy consumption), you could even create a weapon which blends Swiftbow and Longbow in one as uncharged shots against hordes would need less energy. So you have like 50 Charged shots or 150 uncharged shots. Runs risk of players being overly conservative with when to shoot due to the long recharge time. But I think that is not that huge of a problem. Obviously, “ammo” can be adapted if necessary. Mostly to lower numbers because 50 shots are already a lot.

  • Option 3: While holding the Moonfire bow in the hands the player movement is slowed down by 50 % or more. Does that sound heavy-handed and unfun? Yes, that is within design. The weapon is strong like really broken strong. And this is okay against priority targets. But the spam is annoying. So if you spam a lot, you will fall back and expose yourself to higher risk for getting hit. It will make the player focus on the actual important targets. This way the weapon will become like a ballista. A slow but devastating weapon. You still get all the bonuses like now, just that you can’t gun and run with the bow anymore. Makes the choice when to use also more tactical instead of “always”.

There are other solutions which could work too. But I think these are options which could work without touching the total damage of the charged shots. I think Option 2 sounds the most interesting for me at the moment.

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the issue is that moonfire bow even kills maulers and stormvermins on cata with 1 arrow with infinite ammo. But in my opinion it should still be an allrounder weapon because its a bless for every handmaiden and shade player. One suggestion would be to decrease the dot damage and buff the initial impact damage so you are still capable to delete the specials but you cant onehit sv and mauler anymore. But to be honest for base game cata that wouldnt change anything. There arent enough elites , so you can almost in every situation just fire a second arrow. Thats why this discussion seems a bit senseless to me XD. And to be honest, i really enjoy an allrounder bow on my handmaiden even he is indeed slighty broken. But nerfing its damage further than my suggestion would end with a crap bow because at the point where moonbow isnt an allrounder anymore every other bow is better due to it’s capability to spam arrows as much as you want ( no downtime bar).

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Since this topic got unearthed, I’ll add my 2 cents.

Please, take out a hagbane on handmaiden or shade, and spam it as you would a moonbow. After your 16 shots, which will take about 45 seconds of actual gameplay if you use it like a moonbow, you’re done until you find ammo.
Moonbow is a weapon which has no drawback (other than a “downtime bar” which lasts for what ? 6 seconds before you can fire an uncharged missile ?) and all the pros you could wish for : the most damage output of any base ranged weapon, an AoE DOT, special stagger, infinite ammo… I don’t see how it is problematic that other weapons would perform certain things better than a nerfed moonbow, when currently it does everything better than any of them.


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That being said, this is not a moonbow only issue. RVs with handgun do the same, to cite only one example.
Edit : I typed this before @James’ answer, but the point is only made stronger :stuck_out_tongue:


Memes aside, I like option 1 as it differentiates moonbow from hagbane in the context of hordes ; and I like option 2 in regards to weapon identity. I wish they did more towards implementing special mechanics (like recharging trollhammer with grenades instead of ammo, and the weapon boosting grenade damage) - but to stay on topic they could make the moonbow a weapon with “infinite ammo” (while in practice that wouldn’t be true) that wouldn’t really recharge much and that wouldn’t be recharged by ammo drops - but that could perhaps refill a bit on special death to compensate for higher difficulties requiring more ammo.

i dont know if you play much onslaught or cata deeds with more specials, but the downtime bar can really be an issue there. And dont forget, the hagbane bossdamage on waystalker is still higher than the moonfirebow damage, and thats because it has no cooldown bar :stuck_out_tongue:

And how is it relevant to base game balance? You know - the thing this thread is about?

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in base game hagbane does still have higher boss damage

I don’t play those, indeed… that being said, what’s your point ? should we balance around C3 DW Ons with more specials deed ? :stuck_out_tongue:
If you play those modes, the point is that specials and ammo are going to be a pain, whether you run moonbow, hagbane or longbow. I do not know about javelins.

Str hagbane WS is indeed… strong monster damage.

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If bosses were encounters, say far stronger than now but no hordes would spawn in the meantime, they’d actually be worth taking the time to fight. .

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