Darktide's Melee Weapon Design has Failed

Surveys

I have added some surveys to this thread. Once you read it, please come back to the top and give your thoughts.

Do the melee weapons accurately represent your expectations of 40k melee weapons

  • No
  • Yes
  • Kinda
0 voters

Do power weapons feel good in Darktide

  • Yes
  • No
  • Kinda
0 voters

Do power weapons have a clear place in Darktide

  • Yes
  • No
  • Kinda
0 voters

Do chain weapons feel good in Darktide

  • Yes
  • No
  • Kinda
0 voters

Do chain weapons have a clear role in Darktide

  • Yes
  • No
  • Kinda
0 voters

Which powersword change appeals to you most

  • Rework 1
  • Rework 2
  • Rework 3
  • Rework 4
  • Just revert the nerfs
  • Other (explain)
0 voters

Do you like the proposed powermaul changes

  • Yes
  • No
  • I have a better idea (explain)
0 voters

Do you like the proposed chainweapon changes

  • Yes
  • No
  • Kinda
  • I have better ideas (explain)
0 voters

Do you like the proposed shield and maul changes

  • Yes
  • No
  • Kinda
  • I have better ideas (explain)
0 voters

I have been planning this thread for a while and the need for it was made more plain after the latest batch of melee changes. Some dire, some excellent.

First of all I’m going to say two and a half things.

  1. I love this game, and I think its generally speaking pretty excellent.
  2. I love the melee and ranged combat in this game and I think they are both pretty excellent.
    1/2. I try to avoid unnecessary negativity and just go with a reasonable approach to improving things. I am going to try to do the same thing here.

The ranged weaponry design in Darktide is excellent. Broadly speaking it captures the look, feel, sound and gameplay that I would expect from the various 40K weapons and manages to tread the line of balance vs lore/setting accuracy. There are some problems there, usually there is only one good mark for each pattern of weapon. But each pattern of weapon usually has something about it that makes it playable and fun to use and totally viable. Some things are better than others but there’s rarely a weapon I would say just totally blows or totally misses the mark of having some value. Critically they managed to do this while managing to really feel like 40k weapons. The Lasgun is an effective anti-infantry weapon that is ammo efficient and easy to use. The bolter is hard to use, slow, and suffers from powerful recoil, but is powerful in exchange. A hierarchy naturally exists and is well executed in which the most powerful and iconic 40K weapons are the most powerful weapons in game but have logical drawbacks that make them not always an ideal choice.

Melee weapons have not hit this high standard. Quite the opposite really. Melee weapons, while extremely fun to use, are all over the place in terms of design and viability. Many of the most iconic 40K weapons are dumpsterbin weapons that only crazy people (like me) want to play with. Many of the best weapons are quite literally plain jane pokey metal, that’s ok in the same way there are several excellent and powerful autoguns. However the problem is, fundamentally, that 40K iconic weapons should match the lore and the pre-existing crunch but instead they seem to lack a clear vision. The internal balance of the weapons between one another lacks a clear vision. There’s no reference in Darktide to the obvious heirarchy one can extract from the lore or pre-existing tabletop crunch. There’s no obvious heirarchy a player can extract from the look and feel of the weapons. Something being good or bad is totally divorced from what a player might naturally expect when just looking at the games visuals, level progression or audio-visual feedback. My evidence of this is all the friends I have that are not 40K nerds who look at the weapons and then are deeply confused by why one thing blows like a beast of nurgle and another weapon is awesome.

All of this, in summary, is to say that melee weapon design in Darktide has failed. It is incoherent in a number of ways despite many weapons feeling great to actually use. The good news is It can be fixed! In fact the foundation is extremely strong and I do not think it is very far away from perfect. But it definitely is in a bad spot right now. I’m going to highlight some key points of failure and propose how to work on them as well. I welcome discussion and debate.

1. VISION
Ok, so the ranged weapons have a natural heirarchy formed by lore, design and crunch. From weakest to most powerful and an imposed balancing dynamic from least cumbersome to most. They are also generally informed by Crunch from the table top and probably influenced by Dark Heresy. I will use the same general idea to rework a number of weapons and categories of weapons.

My vision is as follows:
Mundane weapons are to all be usable and viable. They should be flexible and easy to use without high skill floors. Iconic 40K weapons are generally “better”, but have drawbacks making them less easy to use. Chain Weapons will be stronger weapons with higher skill floors, generally more cumbersome to use, but dealing more damage than their purely mundane counterparts. Power Weapons will be the “best” weapons but what best means will need to be defined on a per weapon basis as their game design and use cases vary widely. In all cases there should be a reason why a player might choose a mundane weapon over an iconic weapon, but in the same way I choose the shotgun for my zealot over the bolter, its not because shotguns are stronger weapons.

2. USE OF 40K RULES TO GUIDE DESIGN
Let me take a moment to explain a crunch to gameplay translation I’d like to use to inform my logic in these weapon balance disussions: In 40K we have rules that are long standing, with some recent updates. These rules define Strength which can roughly be understood as “damage scale” and Penetration which is the ability of a weapon to penetrate armor and recently added a Damage stat that determines how many wounds a weapon deals per attack that succeeds. Pen does not translate to damage and should not for converting to game rules. These three rules in Table Top are in opposition to Toughness, Save and Wounds. In Darktide we have armor classes and health pools on enemies. This is roughly equivalent to Save and Toughness+Wounds. The Strength of an attack is calculated against the Toughness of the enemy. In tabletop terms this means when you hit an ogryn with a shovel you have something like a %13 chance of harming it at all, if you succeed you deal one wound. Ogryns have like 3 wounds. In game terms this means you do like 100 damage and it mostly shrugs it off.That makes sense. in 40K if your weapon doesn’t penetrate Carapace and you hit an enemy wearing it they have a 50% chance of ignoring the damage all together. In gameplay terms this means my lasgun basically does a pittance of damage to carapace. This makes sense. Infested might be imagined to have a Feel no Pain save rather than an armor save, but the effect translated to game terms is they feel tough and hard to kill even to weapons that might kill flak easily. But flak can feel similarly tough to kill to weapons with weak armor penetration values. What this means is in 40K games a low strength weapon has a low chance of harming a tough enemy even if it can penetrate the armor, and a high strength weapon with low armor pen might not kill a weak enemy due to its armor save. Two examples of this for you:

Heavy Stubbers are S4 AP- so a generic flak wearing cultist is injured 66% of the time but has a 33% chance of outright ignoring the damage.

A Power Sword swung by a guardsman at a space marine has a 33% chance of wounding the space marine (50% in recent codices), but can penetrate the ceramite armor the Space Marine is wearing and so may get lucky and hurt the space marine anyway. Space Marines do not die to a single attack (anymore) in most cases. So he would live but be injured.

Briefly - I will try to avoid being too precise with my numbers. Its more ballpark stuff since I have not memorized all the tables or break points.

3. WEAPONS REWORKS

Power Weapons

One of the first complaints everyone had when Darktide was brought to market was toggling power weapons constantly for a few swings. This violates lore and feels bad to play and isn’t cool. Herein I will propose a number of changes based on the specifics of each weapon.

1. Power Swords
In lore this weapon is a powered weapon that is only turned off to preserve its power pack between battles. Once battle is joined it is activated and used that way for the durration of battle. In recent years power swords have started to add +1 strength to the base profile of the model, but for several decades it was +0. So a guardsman using one was just a guardsman. I believe power swords should be powerful weapons that represent the pinnacle of imperial melee equipment. More suited to finesse than brute force they should be quick weapons that feel good in the hand and allow you to duel enemies effectively regardless of armor. They should be handy for horde work as well with a good cleave profile. They are not high damage weapons, but high armor pen weapons. And they should always be on. I will propose 3 solutions, starting with my preference. The power sword shouls be the “best” at versatility, able to kill anything.

Rework 1: Flat Profile w/ overcharge special
Effort Guestimate: low

  1. The power sword is always powered on when drawn and makes a power down sound when holstered
  2. The damage profile to enemies is flat. It does the same damage to crushers that it does to basic infantry. It can be used against any target with the same effectiveness.
  3. It has similar cleave damage distribution as it does now.
  4. Exact damage numbers can be played with for balance, but I am thinking in the range of 200 for heavy and 100 for light.
  5. Special action overcharges the power sword. The subsequent swing will be a thrust or overhead depending on pattern, dealing greater damage base (400?) intended for single target work.

Rework 2: Battery Mechanic
Effort Guestimate: High
Described by several other persons:

Rework 3: Enhanced Flat Profile w/ Overcharge
Effort Guestimate: Medium
Same as rework 1 but is intended to slightly strengthen the power sword at a cost of lower usability

  1. Flat damage profile has slightly higher base numbers
  2. Slightly reduce swing speed of the sword to compensate
  3. Add a mechanic such that the power sword is drawn from the hip in an unpowered state and must be toggled on manually by the player. If not toggled then it will use normal unpowered swing damage tables
  4. Once powered on the special action converts to an ovecharge mechanic as in rework 1
  5. The powersword is automatically powered off when holstered.

Rework 4: Revert & Change swing combos
Effort Guestimate: Medium
Proposed below

  1. Revert the changes to power charge
  2. Change all attacks to favor less horizontal patterns

2. Power Mauls
These weapons are slower and more unweildy with modifiable power levels that range from stunning and bludgeoning a foe to powerful blasts of energy that crush through armor and stuns tough foes. The damage profiles of lower power mauls in my Rouge Trader book are quite similar to plane jane mundane weapons. So our rework here is very easy. The power maul should be the “best” at staggering anything.

Rework 1:
Guestimated Effort: Very Low

  1. Ogryn power maul should receive light increases base damage to all standard attacks.This should bring it to parity with the Crusher
  2. Power mauls are always on, in the “low power” mode. Their damage against armor types should be gently flataned out for normal attacks.
  3. Audio-visual work to add powerfield damage to gore decals on targets and the glow to power mauls at all time
  4. Special action remains identical to current, serving as “setting to high power”
  5. Audio-visual work to create some kind of “MOREPOWER” effect.
  6. Ogryn special action has its weird movement penalty removed

3. Thunder Hammer:
This is in a pretty good place right now. It is an adequate melee weapon on its own but exels at elite, special and armor busting. The Thunder Hammer should be “best” at killing high value targets.

Rework 1:
Guestimated Effort: Basically nothing

  1. just make the power button a toggle like how it is on chainswords.

Theres no reason for me to have to repeatedly stroke my long hard weapon haft just to get it to go boom at the right time. Its weird. We’re in public.

4. Power Axes
Don’t lie, I know they’re coming. The power axe is generally a strong weapon that excels at killing single priority targets. Not as strong as a Thunder Hammer these weapons are effective against many targets and faster and less unwieldy than gargantuan two handed weapons. It should be the “best” fast single target killer.

  1. Always on
  2. hits harder than Antax for all attacks
  3. swings slower
  4. has over-charge attack that really slaps for excellent damage OR high damage + good cleave. Depends on pattern and design.

Chain Weapons

My views on Chain Weapons have already been thoroughly documented here: Chain Weapons are just wrong
I am not proposing anything truely significant for reworks. However the power weapon changes proposed above, especially the power sword, give the chain weapons an opportunity to shine in a new role. I propose that Chainswords and Chain Axes be re-statted to be more single target oriented, with less cleave, hitting harder and dealing bleed stacks naturally, while also being less wieldy than mundane weapons.

1. Chainsword
These weapons are iconic and need a place to shine. I believe the best place is for them to do more flat damage on normal attacks while not being able to easily penetrate exept with special attacks armor. As a consequence of their generally higher damage over mundane weapons they should have reduced swing speeds. Hitting hard but being unweildy, as the bolter is to the lasgun the chainsword is to the sword.

Rework 1:
Guestimated Effort: very low

  1. Bleed stacks are naturally applied with light and heavy attacks and special attacks, more stacks are applied based on the type of attack in the order listed.
  2. Chainswords do more damage on light attacks.
  3. Chainswords do more damage on heavy attacks. Clearing 200 on first target for heavy attacks.
  4. Chainswords gain access to the slaughterer blessing to replace bloodthirsty being integrated
  5. Chainsword light attacks should have little to no cleave
  6. Reduce swing speed for all attacks
  7. Do NOT reduce stamina, dodges, mobility

2. Chainaxe
The chain axe should outpreform mundane axes in damage on single target but be inferior in handling and cleave.

Rework 1:
Guestimated Effort: Medium

  1. Bleed stacks are naturally applied with light and heavy attacks and special attacks, more stacks are applied based on the type of attack in the order listed. Remove bloodthirsty blessing.
  2. Increase light attack damage so total dealt exceeds 200, eliminate hitmass calculations causing the attacks to slip off target without latching on next target
  3. Remove cleave from heavy attacks
  4. Increase heavy attack damage significantly
  5. Improve heavy attack visual/audio special effects to be more chainsawy
  6. Light swing speed is already limited by its latch effect, heavy attacks are already slow. this is probaly fine.
  7. Do not reduce mobility stats. Unweidliness for chain weapons should be focused on swing speed. Make them feel kinda fat and slow.
  8. Add Deathblow blessing

3. Eviscerator
This twohanded great weapon is supposed to hit a lot harder than it does. It is heavy and slow as it is, though not unusably so. It needs to feel impactful to make up for it. It is also entirely iconic and one of the most 40k weapons in the game.

  1. Bleed stacks are naturally applied with light and heavy attacks and special attacks, more stacks are applied based on the type of attack in the order listed.
  2. Remove bloodthirsty blessing.
  3. Its base heavy attack damage needs to clear 300. It should always kill a poxwalker or groaner on first target.
  4. also increase light attack damage moderately.
  5. Improve the light attack sound and visual design for better rev effects while swinging normal attacks.

Mundane Weapons

Generally speaking close combat weapons come in all shapes and sizes. I’d be happy to see even more mundane weapons of various types. Even spears and glaives! But my theory for their placement should be easy to use, high mobility, flexible weapons that strugle with higher tiers of armor in general and don’t deal quite as much damge as a chain weapon or power weapon or have the flexibility of a power weapon. On the whole I would say they are in a pretty good place and I have tried to construct my weapon reworks with them as the center. The heavy sword and antax serving as my anchors for the rest of the weapon design.

Axes
I believe the axes are in a good place. I believe the combat axes are slightly too strong. SLIGHTLY. no one panic. I do not have the numbers on hand but I propose very simply that the axes as a class have a slight reduction in damage to carapace. That’s it.

Force weapons

I’m going to speak to these very lightly because they are not my area of expertise. I believe these are in a good place and are generally quite fluffy. They have force attacks that are cool and unique. They have generally good usability and decent damage. The deimos might do a touch too much damage on headshots with unimbued attacks but I won’t go hard on that point. The illisi appears, from a brief test I did today, to feel a lot better than the power sword to swing in an unpowered state such that it doesn’t feel like it needs to be consntantly charged up to be good. It isn’t fluffy to have cleave on a force sword like this, to my knoweldge, but RULE OF COOL demands I support this and so does the Lex Imperialis. If anyone wants to make a proposal within the paradigm I’ve tried to outline please do!

Ogryn Weapons

Most of his weapons do not hit hard enough. It would feel better if his melee weapons had better first target damage in general. Just let the big man kill squishies a little better. But the big enemy of the Ogryn is the Shield. This thing desperately needs a rework. Just 100% garbage.

  1. Shield and Maul

Rework 1:
Guestimated Effort: Medium

  1. Turn his maul into a power maul use the same paradigm as described above
  2. increase light attack damage to match new power maul light attacks
  3. Heavy attacks remain shield bashes. Invert the pattern so that it is shove then edge bash.
  4. When using shove attack he is counted as blocking for ranged and melee attacks
  5. Remove stamin drain for blocking ranged attacks
  6. Remove the plant
  7. New special is an overcharge attack, this would require the user to swing a light swing to discharge it

That’s all I have. Thanks for reading.

6 Likes

Don’t have time to read all of this but just a couple things I want to point out because I’ma nerd:

As far as range weapons that’s mostly right until you get to the Plasma Gun. It’s really not that good and needs love ASAP. Also “in lore” Auto Guns are just as powerful, sometimes moreso, than Lasguns. The Emperor’s armies conquered the Galaxy with them in 30k. Their biggest downside is logistics rather than power level, having to deal with munitions rather than being able to recharge batteries.

2 Likes

Power weapons

Did you think to the second option (my preferred) could be used for all powered weapons?
I think that, if they would adopt this, there’s a need to make it generic for all powered weapons.

Chain weapons

Well… I have no opinion cause… Evis has an attack chain that is bad in my opinion.
And this is the iconic chained weapon.
This is the one I tried… this is the one that made me hate these weapons.
I think that I agree with you… but, unless they put an evis with a diff attack chain, well, I don’t care what they do to these weapons.

Force weapons

Force swords are really powerful weapons. Hopefully, the special attack cannot be spammeed.

Ogryn Weapons

Here I disagree… I use scoreboard to see damages done. Ogryn often are in first rank on this.
And Ogryn has best health, and best toughness regen.
In my opinion, their weapons are… too strong considering the advantages of this class.

Regarding mundane / special weapons

I really dislike weapons that have attack chain that make you in need to alternate light, heavy, push etc…
I would not mind that you have to master a slow weapon (evis)… I would hate the attack chain that are totally garbage. I don’t mind an attack chain with strikedown / vanguard… what I don’t like is something where you have to alternate actions to be able to use the weapon.

I thought about the battery idea for other power weapons but didn’t know how to make it work. Power Mauls could work for it but I wonder if it wouldn’t make them objectively worse than they are now?

Thunder Hammers definitely do NOT need it. I proposed basically leaving them alone.

Open to ideas.

I hope they add a pattern you like some day.

Really only if they are using a Bully Butcher cleaver do they come close to the other players. The Gorgonum stubber isn’t bad at DPS either.

I really LIKE weapons with moveset complexity like this. I have several friends who do not. So I think its good there are weapons in both categories for both types of players.

2 Likes

I agree on this… I perfectly know that, what I like, is not what all players have to like.
And that’s why the emperor has made different MK per weapon :wink:

Yes, you’re right… all other power weapons are single use… We can keep them like that.

1 Like

Chainsword and Eviscerator models also need to be bigger. The current chainsword is more of a chaindagger. And the Eviscerator needs to be about the same length as a character’s height.

This is in a pretty good place right now. It is an adequate melee weapon on its own but exels at elite, special and armor busting. The Thunder Hammer should be “best” at killing high value targets.

Thunderhammers also needs their 3-body damage limit removed. It feels terrible to be swinging into a horde and have the same clear speed as a dagger or to watch a powersword just evaporate the horde while you’re not even halfway through.

3 Likes

I always thought they seemed a tad small.
CHAIN DAGGERS AND POWER KNIFES EXIST BY THE WAY, WHERE ARE THEY!?
Ahem. Pardon me.

Maybe its a shorter chainsword because its an “assault chainsword”?

Maybe we will see longer “combat chainswords” as another pattern.

Just an opinion

  1. thread name a bit dramatic
  2. maybe a poll can help to find what ideas people do like or do they want a rework for how power weapon work?

I don’t believe devs will put their time to make a sub-systems for one weapon type (power weapon in our case), it probably costs too much time and money. And tbh I think it is better if all power weapon will have a universal mechanic how charge system works anyway. Community will probably benefit more from it - easier to make new power weapon type, faster to balance and fix.

More over i also don’t believe there will be an overhaul of any kind for how power weapon works, but who knows maybe i will be surprised in a good way.

What about ideas - i think i like the Flat profile more, it’s a clear design. However it means that Rend blessings and penetration modifier (PS doesn’t have this one) for such power weapon must be replaced with something, cause it will be able to ignore armor completely.

It also leads to what i strongly (want to) believe is wrong with PS:

Overall I will just repeat my thoughts from other thread all over again, just with some minor edits. Cause who knows in which threads devs are lurking for feedback.

The more i look at PS attack types and animations, the more i’m sure Fatshark get caught into a doom loop of special attack nerf. It feels they don’t know how many charged swings is good - 1? 2? 4?
In the end it’s either or annoying to reactivate or OP
And what is the most common complain about PS? Not that it is just strong, but how strong it is at clearing hordes and elite blobs.

изображение

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And the reason is these chains just easly benefit from charge buff. That philosophy ‘spam one type of attack’ should be removed from PS. Change its utility and you don’t need to nerf its damage to the ground.

For those who don’t wanna read more, as a couch gamedesigner, i think i have a picture how to fix PS, my explanations will be down further

The PS problem fix is THE SHOVEL (just should be diagonals for heavies, not horizontals)
изображение

Why?
Because if PS patterns and animations were just different, if every chain served for a specific role and utilty:

  • fast vertical for lights (or it can be some combo if vertical+slight diagonal), so you can aim heads, but with obvious damage compromise cause it’s not a heavy attack in the end. Now if there is no time to charge PS it is still comfortable to take down elites, but one by one.

  • slower (compare to lights) diagonal for heavies (or it can be some kind of combo like 2 diagonals+1horizontal, etc)., so you can clear hordes and defend yourself from getting swarmed, but not so fast as with pure horizontals.

  • addition though: maybe regular attacks should have more stagger power, less cleave. Energized - more cleave, less stagger

Sure yo will need to balance other things, like non-energized/energized damage, charge duration time, mobilty, attack speed. BUT it will be much much easier, cause weapon animations will work as caps for special attack performance.

It is kinda obvious that with special attack buff PS will clear poxwalkers better when lights are diagonal, rather than vertical, and it will clear elite blob better when heavies are fast horizontal, rather than diagonal.

3 Likes

Even in that model, the Chainsword is about half the model’s height. Our chainsword is roughly the length of the character’s thigh.

2 Likes

So I hear we need thicc thighs so we get big unga bunga sword? Let’s go!

2 Likes

Yep, this is 100% the key thing we are all trying to solve I think. Because the PS still has to be awesome without trampling the rest of the game’s weapons. They need a way to shine too.

I’m glad you called out this point. I have made the same one in the past and I think its a perfectly viable option if we wanted to aim for maximum MVP out of minimum effort. Its not, maybe, as cool as some options that are on the table. But its totally fine too. In the end my proposals for weapons is centered on giving each class of weapons its own identity which is where I feel the game, currently, is the weakest. (for melee).

I’m actually most partial, after consideration, to idea 3. But idea 1 is easier to implement I think.

  • maybe a little clickbait but I actually do mean it. Failure, to me, is that so many iconic weapons have no home in the inventory of the average user because their design doesn’t give them a niche worth using them for.
  • A good idea.

Alright ive added a bunch of polls.

1 Like

So this was realy well stated, and i did not expect to agree with you but overall you nailed it.
I often ask things like why the catachan knife is not an actual catachan knife? I think a more industrial look for the combat aces wold fit better then there more medival aperance. And the devil claw swords just are not needed.

I think that you’re right.

I have just rolled a pure beauty as PS, but I have experimented in the missions… well, with power cycler the PS is still… a monster.

What you propose is a good solution… even if I like the proposition 2 of Deisu…why? surely cause with what I rolled, I would like to use it (rolled Sunder and added power cycler).
However, the PS without power cycler is boring… with it, too powerful.
Maybe that’s not a problem… but I think that your idea could permit to let the PS a great weapon and would remove its main problem.

1 Like

My idea for activated weapons is to have the special a toggle activation, and its use uses stamina instead of having a cooldown or set number of swings. This is aside from psyker’s force swords, because they already have a resource system tied to their use.

This eliminates the need to have to constantly reactivate them, which is an annoyance, but also balances them innately per class. Using stamina for greater damage and stagger output makes balance sense because stamina is a defensive resource, so you’re actively (pun intended) choosing to sacrifice defense for offense on demand (of which the concept already exists in a vet talent, though is always on instead of activated in that case):

For vet, which has lower stamina and regen, won’t get many uses from a power sword, and will take some time to regen their stamina for more uses, so they can’t go constantly ham on a horde, but can use it effectively in controlled situations. It could also make chainsword more appealing (that weapon needs some buffs anyways). If they want to have more uses for the sword, they can take a stamina curio, which sacrifices toughness or health, so it’s a balanced tradeoff for more power. Power cycler, for instance, can instead refund half stamina used if an elite or special is hit.

For zealot, which has higher stamina and regen by nature, can make better use of chain and power weapons, which makes sense considering they’re supposed to be more melee oriented. Same consideration towards more stamina/regen on curios to keep up powered hits in extended horde scenarios.

Ogryns will meet somewhere in the middle.

I think this simple change would solve both the issue of the annoyance of having to constantly reactivate weapon specials, at the same time limiting their use in a balanced way that makes sense per character.

1 Like

I tried to add your idea to the poll but was unable to modify it anymore.

I will say that it has a certain elegance about it and i can see the appeal. Its not my prefered option but thanks for proposing it. If other people pick it up in number i will absolutely throw out a new poll as a kind of run off election. I’d love to see the community come to some kind of agreement.

1 Like

Yah I can see why there wouldn’t be as high of an appeal, but as a gameplay system I think it’s generally better because it requires people to make considerations about how they approach their gameplay rather than just going with a bis item and being done with it. That, and it would be rather simple to implement, considering they already have the groundwork done in a talent. The difference here would be instead of a constant drain, it’s per swing (which the talent really ought to be too, now that I think about it).

1 Like

Thats a good point. What are they in the game to do? Its a whole class of weapon that seems like it doesn’t have a point once you hit level 30.

1 Like

This one sounds extremely OP.

I think shield just needs a key feature that some of shields have in V2

Basically it can be changed to be more like Saltz priest’s shield work.

  • for lights it is mix of maul overhead and shield push so it provides a bit of control and some anti solo damage

  • for heavies it is horizontal horde clearing, control + block is active while heavy swing is preparing to hit (could be tricky to do animations for such weapon as ogryn’s shield&maul i think). So it will help ogryn to defend himself against gunners while fighting in melee

Examples (for those who haven’t played in V2, look at small shields icons on second sample, it is stamina, same place as in DT)

Lights

Heavies

So I’m far less worried than Op here, I don’ t believe that the Melee weapon design has failed, is it gonna need permanent balance and design improvement, yes, like it does in VT2.

Your balance system is Power should be better than Chain which should be better than mundane, and to that I’d say that this is fine and even good when the game you’re speaking about is an Rpg, but here weapons should always be stronger than their previously available weapons.

But it’s not an Rpg, weapons should be balanced. with that:


PSword:
Now for clarity I don’t use Veteran so I see the PSword from the outside, and I could see that it was gonna need to be nerfed and it did, now it’s gonna need a slight buff to go back to a good place.
Personally, I’d revert the number of powered attacks, but lower the damage buff that it gave

Power Maul:
The Power maul, and basically all the Ogryn weapons, need a slight damage buff, but otherwise it’s a great weapon.

THammer:
The only change that it need is the ability to be able to explode on specials and elites in hordes more easily

Power Axe:
Should work like the THammer, but much faster

Chainsword:
Slight damage buff, and getting the same mechanic as the Evicerator where it will still stick a small bit on heavies

Chainaxe: Only need to have the cam snap be less severe

Evicerator:
Just increase the Cleave counts

Slab Shield:
It need a rework, and offensive buff


So in short, the weapons are fine, they will get balances change all the time as did VT2 and they have place, alongside the normal weapons too

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