Maybe the Game is not designed for godlike Players.
The most gyms arent made for world strongest men eigther 
First of all LOOOOL
Second of all how is my dude out here surviving so long XD
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Mate seriously it´s a videogame in the first place. Bringing videogames and lore 100% accurate together will never work. You´ve to make adjustments or get ride of broken stuff.
Again… i´ve nothing against running around like a spacemarine and oneshotting everything on malice. That´s still the difficulty the game should be balanced around. But higher ones? They should stay as a challenge. There is no other reason for them to exist.
Well tbf i´ve always be like “Ok this game is easier than V2.”, but i never wanted to nerf stuff into the ground. I saw a lot of balanced stuff before the blessings got so hard exeggerated to compete with PS / flamer / bolter… I actually wanted those 3 to get mentionable drawbacks and then look further.
And as i´ve said in the past, FS did it wrong to follow the “buff please” crowd immediately. The game got released, the most didn´t got used to the gameplay or had the powerlevel they´ve now. A lot just played e.g. SMG and flamer while leveling, saw a huge difference and have been like “Buff please…”. Not to mention again, that balancing over blessings is absolute trash since it´ll always be like “The weapon is crazy, but only if you´ve…”.
Sure i love high mobility, but since you can also play and win the game without, you know it´s more some kind of a luxury tool. All you´ve to do is to get used to other timings as you actually do on other weapons. There is no real drawback to miss it and melee-elites like crusher / rager are easier to dodge here anyway.
I do underline your claims about bolter and here lies the issue… “Veteran”. Said it already aswell, this class makes range-weapon balancing incredibly hard. There´s need to look into it.
I played FS since day one so… dunno which issues poeple had with it, but this weapon was highly balanced even without the bulletshield i never used anyway. DS was fine aswell, but picking it over FS? Depends only on the build i guess… i wouldn´t go so far to be like “Pick DS, it´s a FS just with better mobility”.
Knife is a different story and yes it still shows what´s wrong with the melee-combat. But you also have to smash dodge all day long and it´ll be definately worse than the others in some situations.
My statement was more about “Why does the flamers work different instead of picking VT´s and adjust its stats to DT?”.
Damnation is comparable to legend and it gets worse the better blessings you´ve. And the list i´ve made is no exeggeration, those are some fixes for the issues the game has. Also “rebalance weapons” doesn´t mean to straight up nerf them into nowhere. It means to bring them in line and play around utility than just +10% 5 times stackable. (Which is bs imo…)
The rest, as you might´ve read, is about the melee enemies and combat in general, because the overall issue is, that you can clear pretty much the whole map with ranged weapons while sitting on toughness and X wounds for the worst case. Not even Crusher (CW´s) mean something in this game nor do rager.
Just compare this to V2 where you had to fight, where you had only 2 lives and pretty much every overhead was a death for squishy classes. Also monks / berserks (rager) often decided about win / loss as CW patrols did.
They´re all kinda useless in DT even on damnation. They´re slower, have less range, you can stagger them easily or get ride of them from 50m away.
The game is too forgivable in general and assists bad plays more than rewarding good ones, while skill-ceiling gets overshadowed by way too much stats and possibilities the current design offers.
And i can tell you, that i just need to pick a surgestaff and call it a day. Put a Vet on top with a lasgun to deal with the snipers and i can call it a week.
All those modifiers just shift the weapon-choice to something different. It´s good it´s a thing, but it doesn´t mean that the basegame is in a good state, which is clearly not a thing.
Nerfs are needed as buffs are needed. That´s the nature of balancing.
Not everyone is one nor i´m one. And we already had games from the same company before, which did it better with the same 5 difficulties.
I remember poeple there being like “buff please” or “don´t nerf my wigglemancer” aswell. But i can´t remember poeple not respecting the difficulties and being like “I can´t defeat cata, please buff me because everyone should be able to!”.
Multiple difficulties = offering stuff for everyone. I can´t repeat it often enough and i don´t know why so many poeple just can´t respect that not every difficulty is made for everyone. Either you get better at the game or you stay on malice / heresy. That´s the nature of difficulties in general, no matter if we talk about PvE or PvP games.
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And you don’t have to play on those highest difficulties if you don’t feel like it. You could even balance it so you don’t gain that much extra rewards either from those high difficulties so none feels the need to “farm” them.
Currently you cannot even pick the hardest stuff because its on a blody timer and might happen maybe once or twice a week if we are lucky.
Just let players craft from whatever mods we currently have their own challenge, its really not too much to ask.
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I disagree maybe on low intensity. On high intensity I find it comparable to cataclysm. Of course these are different games and excuse me for choosing to not engage with the crafting system and therefore judge the game based on what you could optimally obtain.
You can start trying to balance the game around optimal builds once the crafting system has been fixed.
Dude, you are out here claiming you don’t want an entire rebalance of the game while at the same time writing paragraphs on how to do the exact thing you are denouncing.
As for:
and
and
is due to a few changes FS has made to melee mobility (which you don’t seem to value all that much)
- nerfing melee mobility → stamina regen stops while dodging → one resource gets cannibalized by everything
- attacks need to be dodged later/ have a tighter dodge window
- attacks track more
these changes compound into a situation, where if I want to go into melee against multiple crushers for instance, it is basically suicide. Once they start their running attack overhead (which they for some reason tend to do even when you are in their face) you will eat at least one of them, as their dodge windows have no longer any point where they overlap and they track into oblivion.
The way this is balanced:
- it has been made easier to stagger them out of their attacks, which on its own is not enough to offset the loss in kite-ability
- we have more grenades to stagger
- more ranged tools exist to combat elites
The result is that a team, which is good at positioning themselves, will be able to dispatch a lot of stuff safely from a distance.
Not gonna lie, I am not a fan of this design philosophy myself, but as everybody said a few months ago to me:
“This ain’t Vermintide, deal with it!”
MG IV rework >> rapid burst fire mode which leads to higher dps, perfect at close-mid range, bad at range cause of recoil/dmg falloff
MG Ia rework >> damage buff, auto fire, ok at any range, perfect at none cause of recoil/fire rate
MG XII no need to rework, dmr - perfect at long, good at mid, bad at close
I would be ok this these changes.
+MG Ia needs more ammos
I´ve never said every “fix” have to become a thing or so. They could do a big rebalance ofc, but they could also go step by step.
Just remember when they fixed the combat with the WoM patch and poeple have been like “mimimi, i can´t beat legend anymore” for a week or so. But after a week? Noone really cared anymore because poeple got actually better in melee-combat. (And beastmen got fixed at a point.)
The game would automatically become more challening if the 100% toughness mitigation would´ve a cooldown and if wounds wouldn´t be a thing.
It would also shift the gameplay if range-weapons + toughness wouldn´t be so superior especially in killing and staggering melee elites.
It´s not since you can rely on the toughness. And they´re still slow af…
Also i don´t mind if you´ve some more options in melee-combat. The issue is that you can take them all out pretty easily with a bunch of range-weapons. Or you´ve a psyker with trauma / surge trivialize all of them (as it pretty much has been a thing on Sienna), because there is no real cap when we talk about stagger-resistance.
I´m sure FS should be competent enough to pick such issues and tweak stuff, which will still let certain weapons shine in their niche, but won´t make half the enemies kinda useless.
It´s good that this game is not a 100% copy from V2. It´s also fine that range-combat has its purpose, i wouldn´t even mind if the game is slightly easier.
It´s just that the game is in a horrible state if you compare “what´s possible for the player” VS “what the game throws at you” and as been said, we´re not even at the point where we sit on maxgear or where it´s needed to perform really well.
I remember we had a discussion on different thread a few months back, where you were also constantly referencing your experience with the release of WoM as if that gives you some authority and I care as much about that now as I did then. Not at all.
If we were to increase dodge windows to extent further to the beginning of attack animations then maybe, but in the current melee state this change would be c@ncerous af.
Only it does, because once you face tank one overhead and your toughness is broken you also deal with huge amounts of hitstun, so that you inevitably get dunked on. The fact that attacks track into oblivion, you can only dodge them very late into their animation and that you get stun on hit, makes a group of enemies attacking you incredibly dangerous - even more so for crushers/maulers - no matter how slow they may be. In the case of fighting two crushers solely in melee - once they start doing their sliding overheads slightly delayed from one another it’s game over, because you literally cannot dodge every single one of them, as you have to dodge them late into their animation. That’s why it has to be easier to stagger them and why it is meta to dispatch them from range, in order to offset the fact that it is virtually impossible to kite a group of them in close range.
The bottom line is that the melee in this game gets outscaled by groups of elite enemies as you lack the movement to deal with them in groups.
Ranged combat has the disadvantage, that the weapon is either powerful enough to deal with what’s in front of you or it isn’t and it lacks the inherent mechanical ceiling that melee in VT2 has.
This game at the moment has a problem with scalability due to its heavy focus on range.
Solution:
- Make enemy attacks dodge-able early into their attack animations
- Let stamina regen while dodging
This way melee gets buffed and you can increase enemy pressure a lot more.
-
Rager are easy dodgeable once in their attack-animation. They don´t even come close to the “binding on target” they had in V2.
-
Crusher and mauler are not just slow, their “ice-skating” is highly decreased.
The dogde-window is insane big right now, i can´t really follow your claims here. Yes you shouldn´t instadodge, but if you do, just dodge twice? As been written above, the ice-skating etc got highly decreased or fixed, whatever you want to believe. And you can also dodge pretty much in the last 0,1s and you still won´t get hit even if the animation was already in your face. It´s highly mentionable while dancing with Plague-Ogryns.
Seriously being like “We can´t do it, because there could be the situation where 5 crushers align their attacks perfectly.” is a no-reason to me. It might happen in 1 out of 1000 runs, but it´s dodgeable. How? Dodge backwards multiple times, maybe even turn around and sprint to find a better spot, a chokepoint, whatever. Just use the map to your advantage, bait them into the other end of the map, then vault over a fence / jump down somewhere, run to rescue your mates… there are dozens of possibilities.
Why? Dunno which weapons you´re playing, but there is a reason you can also stack stamina. And right now it´s pretty hard to run out of stamina on any weapon, unless you´ve sprinted into a poxburster and suddenly mention that you haven´t enough stamina to push it.
But if we talk about hordeclear or killing / kiting a pack of elites? Could be kinda busted if we´ve no drawbacks left.
Can´t follow you here aswell. It´s not like dozens of poeple did this before in other tide-games. The mobility is even superior with active sprinting, vaulting over everything or yes, even sliding. The only minor-drawback is, that the maps are mostly full of cover, which makes kiting harder, but that´s it.
Yes you can´t just have 25% more dodge-range or so unless you play specific weapons. But if someone really relied on that in V2, then they probably never learned the game properly.
It´s an example, nothing else.
My point is the following:
Darktide is heavily balanced around range weapons doing a bulk load of the work. Unfortunately range combat has the unfortunate problem that it does not offer nearly as much room for a mechanical skill ceiling compared to melee combat.
So if you want to nerf range combat, so that you need to engage all forms of enemy constellations at both ranges, then you need to ask yourself: “Do I have the tools at my disposal to do so at both ranges?”
In the scenario of crushers:
True, you should not insta-dodge, but that is kind of the point here I am trying to make. If - for instance - were to heavily nerf ammunition drops on damnation maps
→
then you will have to at one point deal with multiple crushers and maulers in melee alone. The fact that you cannot dodge their attacks at the beginning of their animation is crux here.
What are you supposed to do when you are surrounded by three crushers, which all start doing their walking overheads, which you all need to dodge at the end of their respective animation, but they all start attacking at different times. The result is that you dodge one, get your toughness broken by the second + hard stun and then downed by the last.
Now you can argue that one could possibly back up and gain some distance, but what if they are blocking the way to the next res and you have no ammo. So you have to deal with them in melee. There is no decent way to go about this.
That is why we have a shitload of tools to deal with them at range and to stagger them.
Tldr
- Attacks can only be dodged late in their animation
- Multiple running attacks that start apart from one another
- Nerfing range and stagger
Result:
Having to engage with enemies in a way you are ill-equipped to do so.
I don’t get this take at all. Ogryn weapons slap like pool noodles. They send enemies flying but aside from the bully butcher cleaver they are actually trashheap in the damage tier. Which is so bizzare for the 900lb gorilla man. Unless you mean their ranged weapons, in which case I like where they are at.
I’m just saying you can’t really have 10 difficulty levels just because some people keep saying “its not hard enough”. Eventually it takes too much development time, too much balancing, and splits people up amongst too many queues. I’m just saying you have to draw the line somewhere.
I just think that’s not true. Its certainly possible though.
Admittedly I am not alone here, but I brought the right tool for the job and do take on a fair number of these crushers by myself. Sure I couldn’t do this with a heavy sword or catachan sword, but an Antax should be OK.
No disrespect, but the fact that you are not alone here, is exactly why your clip is not represantitive of the issue i am trying to highlight. At no point in this clip do you have multiple crushers solely aggroed on you, which start doing their running overheads in short succession.
What I am trying to illustrate with my scenario is that you simply cannot heavily nerf both stagger and range weapons, because your melee cabilities to deal with pressure are heavily limited in the face of elites , due to how late you have to time your dodges and hence how that spells disaster when you have to deal with multiple elites in your face.
This clip actually just proves that heavy stagger is necessary and powerful.
Just dodge multiple times back- or sidewards? Dodges aren´t THAT limited. I really dunno what´s your issue with it.
This is absolutely nitpicking of a scenario which have a chance to be a thing like dunno… 1 out of 100, maybe even 1000 games?!
It´s a coop-game, so again… your scenario will be super rare. And having to kite multiple crushers is nothing different than kiting multiple CWs in V2 with the difference that ice-skating is way less of a thing here.
And kiting stuff until your team cleared the trash is pretty normal anyway.
Nothing against good stagger on niche-tools. But you just need to pick a surgestaff to see how broken it is against pretty much any specials / elites. The damage-drawback is real, but especially with the recent Psyker-buff on peril-management, even the special condition is a joke. You just spam it to stagger everything all day long.
And in kind of elites there are way too many weapons being able to do the same. Stopping power on range-weapons is exeggerated af.
EDIT: Sorry but there are so many “if´s”… we can boil down pretty much everything to “but if this scenario happens”. It´s a teamgame. Poeple should be able to bring allrounder-weapons, but those should have drawbacks, meanwhile niche-weapons shine in only one category.
And no matter how, a 50% of all enemies shouldn´t be pointless just because…
As it stands it is rare, but only because such targets get dispatched at range or are dealt with heavy stagger tools both which you are in favor of nerfing. If such nerfs take place then such scenarios will come up way more often.
If I stay in range by dodging sidewards I will simply get hit by the next overhead whose dodge window I missed by dodging to early to evade the first one. Sure I can keep dodging backwards, but I need to get up close and personal at some point to get damage in.
In fact it is way different. Ice skating in VT2 is an absolute meme, because they still keep the same dodge window. That way once you dodge one overhead in their animation you dodge all that were in their animation and don’t end up getting hit, because you were to early for one by dodging another. Furthermore you can evade that way and still stay in range. Against crushers you literally have to dodge out of range when you face multiples and either a) stagger them hard and or b) dispatch them from range.
Mostly fair point, except from about 1:05-1:15 i actually am engaged and aggroed with 3-4 crushers simultaneously while the other players are busy.
That’s a pretty narrow situation to begin with. Having them all winding up swings at me at once is definitely going to be a problem if I am out of dodges. But even the hammer can dodge backwards twice. Most of fighting crusher groups in melee while solo is about stringing them out using mobility and terrain. I have solo-clutched against multiple big boys without effective ranged options in the past. I think i have a video like that laying around, hang on…here we go.
Starting around 4:52. I basically spend a long time kiting. Its actually, in my view, a clear example of why the hammer needs buffs to base damage and why the upcoming buffs from FS will probably be very good.
If i get some time today i’ll try it out in the psykhanium using creature spawner.
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Wrong timestamp? Because I mostly see snipers.
First of all, very impressive clutch.
Still I want you to pay attention to what is happening there. You are facing one crusher, two-three Bulwarks, a bunch of maulers and berserkers + trash. Everything but the Ogryns gets taken out by your shotgun, because you cannot reasonably engage here in melee.
Starting from 6:58 you are engaging with 2 Bulwarks, 1 Crusher, and 2/3 Maulers coming straight at you. The way you deal with this situation is by shooting the non Ogryn elites (staying at range) and with the Ogryns you stagger them first via enviromental sources at 7:25 in order to then get some decent damage in.
Now imagine we severely nerf sources of stagger and ammuniton and you need to do the same situation. This basically forces you to engage more up close to push for damage. The issue is that with the way you have to dodge attacks late and the fact that your stamina does not regen while you’re dodging, this situation becomes virtually impossible.
Furthermore you were playing zealot. Imagine doing the same with Veteran who does not have a get out of jail free card, but would be hit even harder by such nerfs.
Maybe you meant the situation starting from 24:50 onwards, but still even here you had to retreat, because you cannot kite multiple crushers effectively while staying in range.
My point: You cannot kite elites in melee effectively while having high dps uptime solely through melee, because you have to disengage the entire time due to overlapping running attacks.
Experiment:
Spawn three Crushers in the Psykanium close to one another and then try to dispatch them with a tactical axe while trying to stay as close as possible.
They should nerf the ammo crates. Its ridiculous, every ogryn now runs around spamming their new minigun and never run out of ammo. In general you can just non stop spam your ranged which is dumb