Damnation experience 2.0... we still need nerfs to make difficulties difficult again

Title…

Just finished a damnation run with 2 other Zealots and an Ogryn… no flamer or so involved.
The first Zealot had a normal lasgun, did a bit pewpew… the 2nd tried to rush in to melee, but everything was mostly dead immediately but Ogryns, and the Ogryn was there to be there.

Meanwhile i…

run around like 95% of the whole run with my Agripinaa-rifle and have been the guy killing pretty much everything but Ogryns immediately and only had to stop my kill-streak thanks to loading-times with a bit of dodging. I even dashed into the enemies just to pewpew them down. I got hit here and there, but who cares with medstations right before and after each event… and some in between.
I never run out of ammo until the endboss aswell, because there was no ammo at the last checkpoint. And i pretty much used my eviscerator only to kill crusher / mutants and bulwarks.

So for everyone who reads this, yes… the whole run have been pretty much as boring as the 10s you need to read the couple of sentences. Even the endboss got wrecked within the first minute. Believe it or not, but it happened with this 317 gun…

@Fatshark please start to make your BASE-game challenging again. Being like “maybe there is a modifier that makes the game actually fun” is a no-go. Also most of the times in high int or extra specials, poeple will come with even more broken weapons to deal with them asap. And we´re still not talking about fully max´d endgame-gear with a sick blessing-combo. Some weapons and even classes sit on huge basestats, pretty much all weapons just need 1 blessing to shine in general.

I just can´t believe this is the way you wanna develop your game after Vermintide. If you want to make a whole shooter, go for it… but if you want to offer what made the pre-series successful, then start to focus on challenging melee-combat again, make elites a threat and stop overbuffing everything please.

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There is TOO MUCH ammo on damnation maps.

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Buff elites! (atleast as a speical condition)
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Agreed. Ogryns and flamer zealots go the whole mission without pulling their melee out, it’s not even hybrid combat at this point.

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The game and it’s weapon system is designed to be skill-based, not number based. numbers are only there to simulate a chase to strength and give a sense of reverse curve difficulty, without really changing anything.

If you want a higher challenge, than simply create its limitations for yourself like everyone else does in Skill-based games.

there is too much health in missions?
Stop using health stations and medpacks and/or quit missions when/if you go down… don’t allow yourself to be recovered, only heretics allow themselves to be captured and rescued. :slight_smile:

Too much ammo?
Stop looting ammo, only use what you entered the mission with. Any ammo laying around is undoubtedly tainted by chaos and should be considered heretical.

Weapons are too good?
Stop using good weapons. your 317 rating weapon isn’t an example of a bad weapon. it is a good weapon. Stats are a lie. anything above 60% stats is considered “max rolled” as you’ll get such a small increase in stats that won’t really effect the effectiveness of the weapon. If you wanna give an example of a bad weapon. Start using weapons with 30% stat to it’s useful stats, and even then you’ll probably only need 1 more hit from any weapon to kill stuff and some ranged weapons will most likely 1shot on headshots anyway.
So far I’ve only seen a handful of weapons that actually hit breakpoints above 70% stats, making that RNG chase of 370+ rated weapons completely pointless for most weapons.

Blessings/Perks too good?
Stop using them. They are clearly the biggest power level in the game as they will completely make or break certain weapons. Your Agripna isn’t using powerful blessings, but your blessing is negating the “low” rolled impact stat of your rifle, meaning that the only “badly” rolled stat of your Agrippa is actually it’s mobility stat, which won’t matter much.
Also who knows where these perks and blessings come from? the heretical machine spirits that mechanicus speaks of? they are just a fancy way of trying to make chaos sound good! heretics!
if you relay on those, than you’re selling your soul to chaos and you’ll most likely become one of the dregs and scabs in no time. :slight_smile:

There are always things you can do to make the game more difficult. Instead of expecting the Devs to create these for you, you can help them by doing it yourself. The Mourningstar exists and there you can ask people to do missions with restrictions, or you can use external sources to find like minded people, or friends if you have those… haha that sounded harsh, didn’t mean it like that :slight_smile:
I just mean my friends would never in a million years go on a mission with self limitations to make it more difficult, they’d prefer to always play low intense missions for instance.

Many of these restrictions could easily become Conditions for missions, or they can add crazy ones that flip things.
Like Disabled Blessings/perks, Removed Health stations, constant corruption damage throughout the entire level, No ammo spawns, or a randomized weapon at the start of the mission like a “go in blind” type of thing… procurement on site, or maybe a “randomize weapon after 10 kills” condition, Downed means death and removed from mission without reinforcements, etc

With that said, I don’t think the base game is “too easy” as you’re trying to claim.
Why? because people have varying skills and I usually switch difficulty a lot for variety and at lower difficulties(malice/heresy) I usually have more mission failed than at damnation.
Mostly this is because of players scattering, ignoring each other, hero moding or simply not being able to coup with the number of enemies, and since they are adding crafting materials and higher rewards for higher difficulties, than you have people always reaching beyond their capabilities for a bigger reward.
This is going to be a much larger amount of players than those skilled enough to farm damnation. Meaning the balance for these players will be more important than adding a new difficulty, that will need testing and tweaking and maybe only 1% of their player base will play it. Seems like a waste of their resources.

so. Help them out. Create the restrictions and game mode and invite people to try it out.

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hey here’s a thought
try restricting yourself to make the game harder
instead of forcing that onto everyone else

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This one is actually an easy fix…

Add more heavy and armored elites. It takes too much ammo to bring those down. You will run out of ammo incredibly fast if you’re having to shoot them all the time. Most of the Ranged weapons do not handle Heavies well too. Plus you might actually see people using more Plasma Gun.

Flamer contrary to popular belief does not handle heavies well at all,
In fact this could be the next Special Enemies mode.

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The Ogryn enemies feel underutilized. Somtimes you come across mobs of ragers and maulers but you rarely see 6 ogryns at once. Are they just too loyal on average?

No one will force you to play new highest difficulty, if there will be one. It should be done just as Cata in V2. T6 rewards are same as on t5.

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no one forces u to use the best stuff

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Than progression doesn’t make sense? Or should i convince 3 randoms to do it too? The highest difficulty should be a pure skill check, this is why it’s the hardest one. If you just want casualy play power fantasy after work, you can set another tier. This how it is in V2, no additional reward for Cata, only challenge, everyone is happy.

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as long as there’s no loot incentive to play higher difficulties, then ye
it’s fine
but that’s not what op is talking about

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If a “skill-based” game with multiple difficulties fails to deliver, then something is wrong with the games state.
Players shouldn´t be forced to run around naked when again… there are multiple difficulties.

What loot do you mean, that extra 100 plasteel?

You can get pretty much everything while playing uprising all day long, it´ll just take a bit longer. Heck before all the mimimi about the armory, you could´ve played sedition only and get alteast 1-2 380 weapons per week.
Not even the achievements / penances are locked on damantion, it´s normally heresy+ or malice+ . That was not even a thing in V2 once cata arrived and you had to do pretty much everything on cata again…

And as you should see, i don´t even run great stuff. Here are dozens of poeple who would laugh at me using a random 317 rifle.

This game has a serious issue in its difficulty-scaling compared to the other tide-games, caused by different systems interacting with each other and all the recent buffs made it even worse.

Again… multiple difficulities… that´s how you´re able to cater different players and how it has been before. Being like “please trash all your weapons if you want a challenge, but let me play all difficulties for the bit of loot” is nonsense… This is no real loot-shooter, nor even a 100% shooter in its own. And the times where poeple actually got better at games, because they wanted to achieve something, have been way better days than the current “everyone needs to get everything, otherwise it´s unfair…” -days.
I personally don´t care about loot anyway, but just look at sports. Poeple give their best to win and practice every day if needed. Gaming isn´t much different… if poeple wouldn´t be able to rely that hard on stats, they would become better automatically.

We need a proper base-game balancing, not more gimmicky-modes telling you “pick anti-armor”, “pick anti special”, etc…
Don´t get me wrong, the weapons are made to do their job and yes they should do it. But even that will only work better if the base-game shines, no modifiers involved.

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Based on what you wrote even something like dif6 would be enough for you. Once you get good enough with zealot you can basically carry any game that doesn’t require you to do insane damage (like the recent specialist gauntlet mod).

Agri VIII is the best all-arounder weapon on Zealot. You might say it isn’t as broken as a Flamer, but on zealot, it’s even better than the combo blessing auto pistol (IMO) and it isn’t very modifier dependent (unlike lasgun where you really want to hit the breakpoints). It’s hard for me to see what would you describe as a stronger weapon apart from the flamer where you can run around and only use that in all situations.

What is it you actually want btw? Halve all damage or double enemy health? Halve all ammo pickup and ammo reserve? Maybe a blanket nerfs to slide and removal of dodge-slide might make positioning and teamplay more important and damage avoidance harder… Is this something you want to see?

PS: It’s pretty funny to read threads like this while in other threads you read constant posts about how you can’t get into melee with zealot…

Just copy&paste from another thread where someone asked me how to…

  • Rebalance the weapons on basestats and give them utility blessings. Especially range-weapons shouldn´t be able to take out melee-elites that easy. That´s the biggest issue looking at the enemies… only sniper and poxburster are a real threat to your life. Gunners can still become annoying, but the rest? They actually have to reach you, then you keep running around with an ironbreaker-passive you can recharge back up in a second etc… even shotgunners got hard nerfed now.

  • Reduce cleave- and stagger-power on several melee-weapons, so a horde will become more of a threat, meanwhile a balanced flamer / purge-stuff will still shine in its job.

  • Reduce the staggerpower on elites e.g. heavy axe hits shouldn´t interrupt a Crusher. Leave staggerpower on e.g. a traumastuff, but only if it´s fully loaded or limit the stagger to 1 time thanks to stagger-resistence.
    Also make crushers slightly faster. They should be THAT elits as CW´s are in Vermintide. But right now they´re the most useless enemies out there. They´re too slow, can get easily dodged and in the first case you sit on your IB passiv.

  • Make ragers more of a fear as they´ve been in V2. Less or pretty much no stagger possibility especially while they combo would atleast be something. That they die way too fast from everything should be solved with the rebalance of weapons.

  • Maybe reduce rangeweapon-stagger pretty much to 0. Leave only a handfull of niche-weapons back with it (grenade-launcher, trauma- and surgestuff, shotgun, bolter…) and if you want a minimum of stagger on other weapons, get that utility-blessing!

  • Less ammo should be a thing, so it´s not just staying back and killing everything a mile away, meanwhile relying on a broken toughness system.

  • Get ride of wounds and rework the system to the one from V2. 1st death grey, 2nd death RIP. The current system with medpacks, medstations and wounds is highly forgivable in general.

  • Make the 100% toughness shield having a cooldown from like 10s or so.

  • Fix the “fixed” spawns. You see it often enough after the spawn. It´s either a pack of Ogryns, or a pack of maulers, or gunners… coming together. There is no variety like “2 Ogryns + 4 rager + 5 gunner + 1 sniper”.
    This might be a thing due to the randomness of the AI director, but not with the fixed spawns.

Just some brainstorming what´s actually wrong with the game.

It´s just that you can abuse too much systems coming together, while enemies get cc´d from pretty much everything and elites feel kinda useless in their spots. And all this is a thing because the game got more forgivable in general and weapons / classes are overtuned even without blessing X.
Imo it´s often like playing the rangemeta in V2 back in the days. Yes DT is more range-related than V2, but that shouldn´t make melee-combat irrelevant or too easy.

Such changes will help to keep the game more challenging without the need of brainlessly bulletsponging or throwing 100 specials on you. Less ammo will force players to get into melee more often, meanwhile less stagger and burst-possibilities will let the elites do their job.

Balancing the basestats and readjusting the weapons in cleave / stagger-power will also make the gap between the 2 niches “waveclear” and “anti-armor” more mentionable, while allrounderweapons are still decent at everything. It´s just that a " top tier solution against everything" won´t exist anymore.

On top kiting and dodging will be more of a thing automatically and players are forced to the used to the melee combat in general with less lifes and 100% toughness to rely on.

And yes, the focus on melee-combat and -enemies is real, because that´s what clearly lacks behind. A lot of range-weapons + the toughness system trivialize a lot of situations. I´m ok to say that this is the sort of balancing on range-fights. Rangeunits are fine in general. But melee-units lack so hard behind and that´s a thing because we´ve too many ammunition, too many staggerpower and they´re just too weak / slow / easy dodgeable.

And all this +X% damage blessings are dumb af tbh… they offer not much variety, only metachoices. Utility-related stuff like “bleeding on weakspots”, “deflector”, “reload-times” etc… will give us more variety and build-assistance… and instead of the pointless buffs we get with each patch, players could use those blessings to deal with the drawbacks of weapons, that they´ve the most issues with.

Tbf… i´ve a lot of general experience and a pretty decent shot-calling. But also in general… the most poeple just don´t know how to play these days. They go online, check a guide, copy & paste the stuff there, but don´t even understand how it works and why the most times.
I told others many times how to push as Zealot or that´s pretty much irrelevant with all the medpacks / stations, just to your job and be the frontline. You could also rely on the health-regen feats if you want.

But no… it´s always like “Zealot can´t do a sheet because there is a handful of gunners.”

There are maybe 2 spots (khasma bridge) where it´s hard to move forward due to missing defensives, but that´s it.
But i would also guess, that the most players will never learn it, because they´ll never think out of the box and just rely on their range-weapon… maybe FS should create a time-limited modifier where you get chases by an undying deamonhost if you don´t push.

And yes it is, but it´s more about the stats etc. in my statement. A bunch of stuff is just too strong and getting 370+ stats and some decent blessing will make it even worse.

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This idea would work if damnation wasn’t so easy that two people can finish it by repeatedly slamming their face at the keyboard, and there’s four players on the team, so even if you go with the latrine shovel, two zealots will burn every single enemy on the map before you have time to die.

The game needs another much harder difficulty.

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While I would certainly nitpick your ideas… I think the direction would be good, even if it would be pretty hard to implement.

I personally would want to see a new difficulty based on some of your ideas (Increased mass, less ammo reserve/pickup etc.), and not a blanket rebalance, but anything giving us harder content without enemy spam is welcome.

I just have to say that VT2 ranged meta wasn’t really comparable, that was some otherworldy abomination.

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It´s not like everything should become a thing. As been written down… it was more a short brainstorming about “what is actually wrong and how to solve it”.

It´s up to FS to make changes and i would welcome just little permanent tweaks every 2 weeks or so. I mean… flamer or PS could´ve been tweaked with each patch in their basestats for example. Just 2% nerf here, 1% there… just to find a spot where they shine in their niche but are not too powerful.
And some permanent “hotfixes” to experiment that way should be a thing, but sadly it isn´t.

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I think nerfing the top weapons a bit every 2 weeks is a bit different from your “vision”. I think slowly nerfing down everything is a pretty bad idea. Taking away power from the players constantly over time isn’t something that helps player retention (I’m not protecting FS here, it’s just something that feels super bad to the majority of the players).

There will be some balance changes next week and it was already said that PS and Flamer will get adjustments so that’s something. Based on small steps I would like to see parts of what you wrote implemented in every big patch (blanket ammo nerf for example), that would make some extra steps instead of a small nerf to Agri VIII and Caxes every 2 weeks.

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Limiting oneself does not make the game harder if randos in the party are still blitzing everything.

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