[Crafting] Never tell me the odds! Or you know what...?

[Lt.DavinFelth]

For anyone who is still playing agains the current crafting system here is a song…

I’ve tried, tried, tried, and i’ve tried even more
I’ve cried, cried, cried, and I can’t recall what for
I’ve pressed, i’ve pushed, i’ve yelled, i’ve begged
In hopes of some success
But the inevitable fact is that it never will impress!

I’ve no more Karks to give
My Karks have runeth dry
I’ve tried to go Kark shopping but there’s no Karks left to buy!

I’ve no more Karks to give
Though more Karks i’ve tried to get
I’m over my Kark budget, and i’m now in Karking debt!

I strive, strive, strive, to get everything done
I’ve played by all the rules, but i’ve very rarely won
I’ve smiled, i’ve charmed, i’ve wooed and laughed, alas to no avail
I’ve run round like a moron, to unequivocally fail!

I’ve no more Karks left to give
My Kark fuse has just blown
I’ve been hunting for my Karks all day
But they’ve upped and Karked off home!

I’ve no more Karks to give
My Kark rations are depleted
I’ve rallied my Kark army but it’s been Karking defeated!
The effort has just not been worth the time or the expense!
I’ve exhausted all my energy, for minimal recompense!

The distinct lack of acknowledgement has now begun to gall!
And i’ve come to realize that I don’t give a Kark at all!

I’ve no more Karks to give
My Karks have flown away
My Karks are now so Karked up they’ve refused to Karking stay!

I’ve no more Karks to give
My Karks have gone insane
They’ve come back round and passed me while they’re Karking off again!

I’ve no more Karks to give
My Karks have all dissolved
I’ve planned many projects, but my Karks won’t be involved!

I’ve no more Karks to give
My Karks have all been spent
They’ve Karked off from the building
And I don’t know where they’ve went!

I’ve no more Karks to give!
I’ve no more Karks to give!
I’ve no more Karks!
I’ve no more Karks!
I’ve no more Karks to give!

[Kinetic Lyric Video] I've No More Fucks To Give — Thomas Benjamin Wild Esq. - YouTube

[Ralendil]

So, it is to get the perfect weapon. Ok.
And you know that the difference between an excellent weapon (long work but not hard to get) and an excellent (really really rare) there is a small margin difference?
I suppose that the answer is yes.
So, now the community argue that DT is not good cause they cannot get a perfect weapon, a quality that would not give anything in the missions more than an excellent weapon gives.

@zaygr

The problem is that there is no definite path to a perfect item at all that isn’t mired in layers of RNG.

As I said… you ask to get a VT2 feature (red weapons), that was introduced lately in VT2, in this game that is at its beginning. I suppose they have development plans. I am pretty sure that we will get things that were in VT2 like salvaging weapons or the red weapons…

@zaygr

The locks, time to acquire weapons (of a good base) and the rarity of getting the combinations to line up are all related in how bad the system feels to interact with.

The system is bad. I don’t like RNG also. But this is about the game. They made the game with an RNG system, they won’t remove it entirely.
Now, the question is what are the problems that have a great impact on the game and its player retention. If you think that it is end game mechanisms, maybe you’re right… but I don’t think so.
I personally think that players want good weapons, and not all of them want the perfect weapon. Regarding crafting and player retention, my opinion is that the problem is the time needed to get something valuable. Fact is, the system permits that. But it takes an insane amount of time regarding the normal player, or even casual one, that could spend to get something valuable.
Regarding the end game (get fabulous weapon, or maybe, perfect ones like red of VT2), it will surely come… but later.
I also think that there will be an increase of the modifiers. Actually they are capped to 80%. I am sure that it will increase later.
All these changes will surely be part of the game development and surely part of their plan for the game.

I can be wrong, however with all comments we have seen about players arguing they cannot get anything valuable and that the game is a failure… I can’t imagine the problem pointed is that they cannot get the perfect weapon.

@Lt.DavinFelth

Your assumptions are wrong…

Data: I already have a weapon (Combat Axe 380), new system allowing for rerolling 2 perks or 1 perk 1 blessing or 2 blessings is operational, also we remove 2 (perks or blessings or one each) with the least propability out of the equasion (so perks).

You make all your maths as if getting any tier levels had equal chances at any quality level.
That’s totally wrong.

@Lt.DavinFelth

And for WtHtI model I have one reply

as I said it can happen… however, chances to get a T4 are greatly increased with higher modifiers.

[zaygr]

They can have RNG, it’s just that in my opinion it’s too much RNG, and having to start over again each time a weapon gets locked in a bad way is detrimental to a lot of player’s fun and satisfaction.

[Lt.DavinFelth]

@Ralendil

@Lt.DavinFelth

Your assumptions are wrong…

Data: I already have a weapon (Combat Axe 380), new system allowing for rerolling 2 perks or 1 perk 1 blessing or 2 blessings is operational, also we remove 2 (perks or blessings or one each) with the least propability out of the equasion (so perks).

You make all your maths as if getting any tier levels had equal chances at any quality level.
That’s totally wrong.

@Lt.DavinFelth

And for WtHtI model I have one reply

as I said it can happen… however, chances to get a T4 are greatly increased with higher modifiers.

In statistical analysis clusters can happen for Emperors sake, and as such they cannot be used as justification.
You do not have adequate control group to base you assumptions (I don’t know how many weapons did you make, but that’s not enough based on provided probability).
And you made basic mistake of misjudging input when you tried to prove me wrong…

[brosgw]

I feel like the devs should just be transparent and give us the REAL odds so we can make informed decisions.

[Ralendil]

@Lt.DavinFelth

In statistical analysis clusters can happen for Emperors sake, and as such they cannot be used as justification.
You do not have adequate control group to base you assumptions (I don’t know how many weapons did you make, but that’s not enough based on provided probability).

Exactly. The “proba” you made are total non sense
Happy that you finally realize that.

And about weapons, in 1400 hours, I crafted lot of weapons…

EDIT’ maybe you should try refining a low quality weapon and check how many times you see a T4 perk and how many times you see a T2. You will see that the odds to get low tier level is increased for low quality weapon.
Off course, compare with a 380 weapon.
And you will see how wrong are the probabilities that you exposed.

@zaygr

They can have RNG, it’s just that in my opinion it’s too much RNG, and having to start over again each time a weapon gets locked in a bad way is detrimental to a lot of player’s fun and satisfaction.

I can understand this feeling.
I think differently as I crafted a lot of weapons. I think that, if we increase the possibilities for players to craft (so, more resources) players will get easier the good weapons, and even excellent. It would solve a part of the frustration.
And I think that the biggest RNG problem is Brunt’s armoury… Finding a good base weapon is a nightmare in DT.

[Fingeris]

The only good thing is that we don’t really need weapons above 500 to win on Damnation.

Mostly, only weapon type and blessings matter.

[BFCInsomnia]

True enough but that’s not because “mid” gear is good enough, that’s because high-dif is too easy.

Then again this topic was discussed to death in other threads already

[Fingeris]

@BFCInsomnia

that’s because high-dif is too easy.

Some players still struggle on Malice, and some find Damnation “too easy”

The thing is “a fool with a tool is still a fool”

Even a weapon above 500 won’t help if you can’t make your build work

But for sure it might come easy when you’re using the best weapon and blessing combo possible

[Lt.DavinFelth]

Flawless found error in my calculations, so below new version:
Now they look a bit better thanks to removing T1 from the equation and increasing probability by 2nd slots which I have not taken into account (on account of being lazy / scatterbrained / mad).
It’s for current (Prepatch #12) system btw.

Melee:

Ranged: