Convocation of Decay (Legend) End Event - OP or Nah?

With bots it is easy but with a full or partial team of randoms, there are too many things that can go wrong and group wipes are pretty common.

Well yes this can be a struggle but i think a push in combination with a dodge is for some weapons enough time to quicksnipe that treat (handgund, longbow and crossbow for example)
But with a shortbow or siennas staff this is very difficult, so yes i kind of agree with you but not completly. And to quicksnipe a special when under pressure is a skill that should be there if ypu play on the highest difficulty in base game. If you have like 5 chaos warriors on you than ok thats to much pressure to snipe, but if there is only or mostly trash arround you this isn’t so difficult in my opinion with some practice

Well the thing is specials are high priority targets so you should do whatever you can to kill them asap. When you have a ability that makes room or invisibillity than you have more than enough time to kill that enemy. So yea killing that special is not impossible. But most of the time i don’t see my team doing this

Well here i give you a fair point, to which i agree that spawns are really weird sometimes

So all in all i agree with some of your points but my opinion stays that most randoms fight here one by one without a plan

Generally for this statement i agree with you, issue is just that it doesnt quite work well with in CoD at all. Since enemies are more or less constantly pouring in from all directions. Comparatively in a open field or even a tunnel you can push&dodge to make some space and be reasonably sure that you will not die from some slaverat poking you with a stick in the next second or two. But in CoD you have this scenario where even if you push&dodge you can still end up hit because enemies are all over and they are immune to stagger while climbing.

Velsix recently had a video uploaded of himself soloing the dang event on a higher modded difficulty and his way of dealing with specials in the event was generally just jumping out of the circle whenever they came in with other enemies about…testament to his skill that he won certainly, but it also kinda highlights the nasty aspects of the place.

Invisibility isnt exactly common, and abilities such as what you describe tend to have a nasty cooldown such as the mercenary warcry…although the spawnrates arent excessive in legend or not too much so at least, but in cata they can come pouring in like rain.

Honestly one of the things i rate the most dangerous in this game is being surrounded and that´s the default of that place without kiting or a solid frontline…but what to do if the team isnt coordinated and lacks such a frontline? Everyone kites in different directions and eventually clash into eachother getting pinned by the hordes following.

…To be fair, what plan should there be? Every teamcomp needs a different one and any plan that doesnt involve a strong frontline holding enemies down is extremely difficult to pull off. This since without that frontline it becomes necessary to move but having four randoms sync their movement at a moments notice isnt a very reasonable demand.

I guess I just wish Swift Bow was better at killing specials than it is now. Its charged shot is slower than the Longbow’s according to Armory, and in practice it doesn’t feel much faster to me than Longbow’s. Even if it was made faster (depends on by how much of course), at 100% headshots the Swift Bow’s charged shot would still be lower armour dps than the Longbow’s at 100% bodyshots (I tested how it is currently on SV. Swift Bow averages 30-ish currently at 100% headshots, Longbow averages at 50-ish at 100% bodyshots) while still not really being any safer than any other horde clear weapon, like the shotguns, and still being quite weak at long range. It doesn’t even have 100 dodges like MWP or BoP, and yet is supposed to be a kiting and shooting weapon.

Yeah Volley would probably be too powerful on HM because of the ammo sustain. Good point.


I wouldn’t say Old Haunts is that difficult. The start of EL alone is much harder than any part of Old Haunts even if its briefer. One of my favourite parts of that map. Old Haunts relies on throwing lots of berserkers at the player, which have too many hard counters. There’s CWs at Old Haunts too, but the ones at the church can be fought in a large open area, while the ones in the final event can be killed very quickly because they’re on their own when they spawn. I agree with PistolPete that the overall sustained difficulty of Old Haunts is good though.

So for Convo how about:

  • Reducing/removing the flashbang effect when entering and exiting the ritual circle.
  • Make it so that the gap near that torch next to one of the player respawn points can be moved through, as it’s visually misleading as it is now and easy to get stuck on.
  • Increase the consistency of the spawns. Less extremely easy ones (feels like I get nothing on the final sometimes) and less infinite buildup of enemies that makes it very difficult to recover from.

I think these changes would make the final reasonable for most players without making it too easy.

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No, it can’t happen yet. We still need 87 posts. WE’VE GOTTEN THIS FAR, DON’T GIVE UP NOW!

Ont: Still waiting for @Brytarn to chime in.

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If devs looks at it, I need to link this topic as well, on the same subject.

And on another but pretty important topic before the next season happens (or we’ll lose players there)

Isnt the point of difference between the swift and longbow the fact that the former is a lot more mobile at the expense of damage per shot?

If you instead compare say longbow aimed shots on a moving boss to swiftbow just pouring them out i think the latter comes out ahead generally, and that would apply to hordes too.

True. but it either has none or extremely small movement penalties while moving and shooting at the same time. This is why it is better at kiting than the longbow, that and it can keep a fair number of unarmored mobs from running at full speed.

And lets be real, 100 dodge charges is a rather pointless perk, especially on ranged weapons. But even on melee ones it can feel rather wasted such as keri 1handed sword since…what is the use if you cant kill the stuff infront anyway?

Totally agree with this!

In fact (and this is probably a topic for another post), the difference I see in horde density and special spawn rate, between playing solo with bots and playing with a friend is night and day.

Sometimes we’re out of ammo killing specials before we’re 5 minutes into ANY map but this is felt all too painfully on Convocation of Consistency (sorry).

My friend completed Convo solo on Legend recently and he encountered no Chaos Warriors or Blight Stormers in the finale. Just a couple of Gas Rats and one Rattling.

Compare that to I think the 5 or so failed attempts we’d had playing together up to that point where there were so many Chaos Warriors and Storm Vermin (and so much gas that you couldn’t see them anyway) that my frame rate tanked to about 10fps (8700K and GTX1080 before you ask - usually steady 90 - 120fps).

I just personally think there’s something consistently odd between what spawns and the rate of spawns when playing solo vs the co-op experience with a friend. It’s almost like the Ai director doubles up on everything if there’s more than one human player present :slight_smile:

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Old Haunts is a reasonably predictable ending with fairly constrained frontage, not at all the RNG cluster that CoD is. CoD can be really easy, it can be really hard. It depends on what spawns you get. If a loss happens in Old Haunt it means someone screwed up. If a loss happens in CoD more likely than not you got unlucky with the spawns and team picks (GK I find is the best answer for when it throws a ton of CW).

Enchanter’s Lair’s first two phases are super easy at this stage for most people. So it’s just 1/3rd boss HP to burst down. Granted this can still be painful without any boss dps on the team but there’s reasonable odds of having enough dps.

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Yeah but it’s nearly less than half the dps the Longbow has on armour with bodyshots even if you’re getting 100% headshots with it. The longbow’s bodyshot dps on armour isn’t high. This is very bad damage even in the hands of a player that has perfect aim.

I don’t believe Swift Bow’s low cleave on either quick or charged arrows is going to provide much cc on anything but a Skaven horde. Not having slow down is convenient but unless it’s increasing the player’s movement, it’s no better than just dodging is.

I’ve used the 100 dodges BoP has many times. It’s more useful on a ranged weapon than a melee one because of situations when you have to kite a horde+multiple specials. Those extra dodges let you kill the specials at range efficiently. That works on melee too, but melee takes longer to kill specials (Well not in the Swift Bow’s case I suppose). Additionally, it means that I always have enough dodges to reload/shoot not matter how many times I’ve dodged with my melee weapon before switching. About 88 of the extra dodges are useless on anything except FoW, but the first 12 are great for something that’s specialised at kiting.

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So…swiftbow is worse at armor but better at bosses and hordes, i cant see the problem ._.

Likely not on a modded difficulty, but on cata i´ve found i can whittle down a incoming horde by running backwards while pouring out shots. And since almost every enemy hit stops moving for a sec it works at keeping them from ever really reaching as long as the horde isnt dense enough.

The weird thing about swiftbow is that instead of sniping the armored targets&specials you end up wanting to gun down everything else and then just pick them off in melee. Hence many, myself included, often pair the swiftbow with dual daggers or glaive.

Additional points towards this is the way waystalkers trueflight works, if the intended target hides in a horde the ability is honestly not unlikely to misfire entirely but if they are infront or alone it will work just fine.

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Getting back to the problem with Convocation, please fix the end event so it spawns the same amount of specials vs being different each time. It would make it easier if people knew what to look for.

Thanks
Vormar

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You just mean the amount right, not type and order? Honestly making it that set is unnecessary. It just needs a narrower margin of variability.

edit: Don’t touch my post sharkbot!

Judging by his previous post I’d say correct amount. It has been pointed out from time to time that the event in itself is broken. The variations Vormar prescribes to playing solo vs with other humans can also be seen if you play several rounds with a 4-player team. If the event is coded in a similar fashion to most events (the way they were coded at the time of Grimalackts breakdown ages ago), then it is most definitely broken and should be fixed before any changes are made (including changes to the annoying flashbangs and other major QoL changes effecting difficulty). What I refer to as the coding for most events is the spawning of random clusters from a specific group (horde, special, elite or preset mix) at either set times or when the current cluster only have X living members left.

Indeed it has, and I have a similar inkling from experience, but unfortunately it’s never been given very good evidence nor has a potential bug been found anywhere in the code as far as I’m aware.

Would be great to get to the bottom of it but it’s pretty hard to judge at the moment without more convincing evidence.

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I wonder how many people feel unmotivated to do CoD on Legend when they see it pop up.
It feels tiring after a while to have a perfectly fine run with people or bots go to naught all because of the end event somehow spawning two elite packs and a blightstormer in the middle sending everything into chaos within moments.

I get this feeling. It is tiring to get to the end event only to fail and have to do the rest of the level. It would almost be better if the end event was the start.

Speaking of that, I think Enchanter’s Lair got something (among other things of course) very right. It immediately starts off with a mini event (the Chaos Warrior trap) that shares elements with the final (sudden pouring in of chaff mobs with elites in a tight space) but is less extreme than the final. This somewhat lets the player mentally prepare for what is to come. Convo on the other hand isn’t like this at all. Not a single part of the level remotely prepare the player the end event. More of learning cliff than a curve. Other levels have this issue as well, just pointing out something about EL’s level design that I think is effective.

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The problem is you can’t easily really learn CoD’s cliff. The spawns are so inconsistent you either have to be prepared for the worst case scenario say for example Gas Rat, BS and two elite packs while the fodder is still up with you. EL’s end event is always consistent, same with Halescourge, you know where you’ve gotta go and be ready to prepared during the cooldown on the boss. There’s no real consistency like that with CoD’s end event and it makes it hard to justify doing the event on a bare minimum of 20 times if you want all the legend skins/rewards for your careers.

I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s a good chunk of players who gave up on getting their legend skins purely do to that end event after the cheese was patched

can’t say I’ve ever found the finale to be that extreme, even on losses it was like…mostly people just getting split up and rekt from running around like headless chickens

Or people hard commit to staying in the circle and die when overwhelmed instead of just jumping out when it gets too heavy

Spawns should probably be made more consistent but I’d like to see QoL changes first and see what that does for the finale. Not getting blinded would go a long way to helping teams stay coherent.

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QP Legend is usually a smooth run with a chaotic wipe at the end like @Incandescent says, so I usually drop and even with my premade we restart when it comes up. It’s got to the point there is a very very high “F*CK IT” factor with this map.

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