Brutal Momentum on axes is insanely op and needs a nerf (including suggested fix)

[CataTwitchOnly]

The following applies to all effects that apply the “ignore hitmass” modifier to axes - Brutal Momentum happens to be the current most popular one (e.g. ignoring hitmass on crit).

Suggested fix: Instead of ignoring hitmass these effects now half hitmass/double cleave. The result should be that the number of targets that can be hit with an attack is doubled rather than made unlimited so that the extremely low base cleave of axes still matters.
After this nerf they will probably still be best in slot most of the time. The base blessing and the ability to increase cleave on heavy hitting axes is THAT good!

Reasoning:
In the current state of the game axes with brutal momentum are by far the best melee in the game and invalidate all other melee weapons. There is absolutely no reason to use anything else if you could also pick an axe with a blessing that makes it ignore hitmass.

Axes are and have always been very powerful single target weapons with excellent stagger (capable of staggering most elites/serkers consistently) and outstanding single target damage as well as armor penetration.

The downside to axes has always been that axes dont have cleave. Thats all. That was the only reason the weapons werent best in slot everywhere all the time.

This blessing fixes their only downside and what youre left with is an absolute monster of a weapon capable of:
staggering multiple elites in 1 swing
shredding through hordes
amazing armor pen
amazing single target damage on all armor types

They are damage wise almost power sword but with much better mobility and without the need to activate the weapon. There is absolutely no reason to use anything else anymore.

The problem is mostly specific to axes since other weapons dont share the same damage profile / cleave as axes and going from “okay/good cleave to insane cleave” is much much worse than going from “effectively no cleave to insane cleave”.

Please fix them.
And since this has been a reoccuring theme everytime i come here ill say it again:
Mechanics that allow you to ignore density are broken in horde games. EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. The only way they can ever not be broken is if the numbers on them are so insanely bad that they literally dont do anything.

Please stop designing things that dont have limitations based on enemy density.

[Vodhawak]

@CataTwitchOnly

In the current state of the game axes with brutal momentum are by far the best melee in the game and invalidate all other melee weapons. There is absolutely no reason to use anything else if you could also pick an axe with a blessing that makes it ignore hitmass.

Not true.
You have plenty of reasons to play most other weapons, a lot of them even have acces to brutal momentum. and if you play a Vet you have a weapon that outclass Brutal momentum axe evry time of the day
I agree that Brutal omentum on axes is very strong and feels mandatory, but right now doesn’t seem so broken as you say it is.

[CataTwitchOnly]

@Vodhawak

You have plenty of reasons to play most other weapons, a lot of them even have acces to brutal momentum.

I have already addressed this and for all coming responses:
Please make sure you read the entire op before responding.

[Ralendil]

You did not.
PS does more damages when activated than the combat axe.
By the way, name the correct weapon.

ONLY MKV Antax can use the blessing BM with an effect. The Achlys is not as fast as the Antax as you need, to use BM, to only use heavy hit. For Rashad, it is worst, it works 1 time / 6 hits on head.

I use the combat axe all the time. BM has lot of problems.
On an Ogryn’ shovel, it doesn’t work at all.
On a tactical axe, light attacks get infinite cleave, only heavy attacks need BM to get it. But you rarely use heavy attacks with a tactical axe to clear hordes.

The PS stays the stronger weapon in the hands of a veteran, and even in the game.

But I will agree with you about one thing. BM is really strong. However, if they would put a fix like they did for Devastating strike, I would be really upset.
I think that the main problem is not that BM is too strong, but that lot of the others interesting blessings on the paper are… bugged.

Sidenote: I tested an axe without BM… and guess what. The advantage of BM is not really so big than you could think.
Headtaker + decimator I tested (and decimator is bugged, as I reported it), and I killed lot of horde’s ennemies.
Final word. When a vet comes with his PS, he decimates the hordes faster than what I could do with my axe…

[sioux]

lol

[Vodhawak]

I have read it.
Are you refferring to this?

@CataTwitchOnly

staggering multiple elites in 1 swing

providing that one trash mob to oneshot headshot is in your way, some weapon can do it for free.

@CataTwitchOnly

shredding through hordes

meh average horde clear, lot of weapons have much higher cleave damage and higher attack speed.

@CataTwitchOnly

amazing armor pen

Very good armor penetration yes.

@CataTwitchOnly

amazing single target damage on all armor types

Most weapons with activation specials deal much more

You are highly overselling the axes and downselling the other weapons.

@CataTwitchOnly

They are damage wise almost power sword but with much better mobility and without the need to activate the weapon. There is absolutely no reason to use anything else anymore.

So this is a neutral PS activated heavy attack, that cleaves through armor without headshot and can get brutal momentum if one wants:

And this are combat axe mark V l1 and push attack:

Even if you consider the probably slightly faster attack speed of the axe the difference in dps can’t be compared.

If you want to say that Brutal momentum is one of the best blessings in the game i agree, but it stops there and i don’t even see reasons to nerf it because no weapon gets broken because of this, if anything rework/ buff some other blessings to provide more build variety and interesting combinations.
Most Axes are a solid pick in this game but saying they overshadow any other weapon is just not true.

[enEEEewon]

“Brutal Momentum is the only Blessing worth having, so nerf it into worthlessness like the majority of blessings.”

You could have just said this.

This game and the masochists still playing it are just something else entirely. Uninstalled a month ago and I have no idea how I played that long.

[CataTwitchOnly]

@Vodhawak

So this is a neutral PS activated heavy attack

@Vodhawak

And this are combat axe mark V l1 and push attack:

I have so many questions, for example:
Why are you comparing heavies for power sword with lights on Axe?
Why are you exclusively showing Poxwalker melee trash - the one area that arguably is the one where power sword is guaranteed to look the best?
Why are you showing only 1 exact type of axe that you handpicked?
Why are you comparing damage per hit instead of dps after acknowledging that not having to activate and attack speed matters?
Why pick Power Sword specifically? I already said in my OP that damage wise it still beats out BM axes but that BM axes have major advantages over it in other areas.

Like if you want to seem like you put in effort in your response by displaying stats, maybe make the effort to actually display comparable and useful stats rather than ones that are completely arbitrary and handpicked so they look good?

Idk man, thats not how you make an argument. Thats how you make a biased statement to fit your narrative.

@Ralendil

On a tactical axe, light attacks get infinite cleave,

You’re serious arent you? How about.. no? Have you used them? Are you sure youre playing Darktide?
How does your post have a like? Who else doesnt actually play the game?

@enEEEewon

Uninstalled a month ago and I have no idea how I played that long.

Ohh that would explain the previous comment as well i guess. Not sure why youre spending your life on forums about games you dont play but here we are.

Eugh, i dont know why i bother really.

[Ralendil]

@CataTwitchOnly

You’re serious arent you? How about… no? Have you used them? Are you sure youre playing Darktide?
How does your post have a like? Who else doesnt actually play the game?

You’re right… tested.
Tbh, this is something I had seen when searching infos about tactical axes. Even if I always use them with BM.

But, doesn’t change that a PS is more efficient than the BM. And the fact that you have to activate the sword is normal… as it is more efficient.

[ZoroDaOtter]

@Ralendil

The Achlys is not as fast as the Antax as you need, to use BM, to only use heavy hit.

I have no idea what went through the combat devs when they designed this. Somehow, for some reason, the axe with an attack speed stat attacks slower than one that doesn’t.

[alsozara]

Ok so I agree brutal momentum is overtuned on combat axes specifically, and the issue currently is mainly the Antax as it’s the only MK that can use BM effectively currently. If Rashad gets its headshot hitbox fixed it will be even better than Antax but for now it can’t really utilise BM.

I do think saying it makes other weapons pointless is exaggeration and I still think it’s absolutely laughable to say it’s better than power sword. You can see the damage cleave falloff in the damage table @Vodhawak posted further up. I doubt they had slaughterer + rampage set up in the damage calc either which actually pushes things further in power sword’s favour, Caxe can absolutely not damage boost with blessings to the extent power sword can. So frankly if you think BM Caxe is better I’m confident you’ve not used a good power sword or this is just weird cope.

None of that is to undermine the general point that BM on axes should be nerfed, a point I completely agree with, I just think silly hyperbole gets you nowhere.

Toe it’s not only the effectiveness of the blessing that makes it an issue, but the way it entirely removes the intended weakness of a weapon class. Having blessings that alleviate a weapon’s weaknesses makes sense, having ones that flip weakness to strength is a bizarre choice.

I’d be a bit more conservative with the nerf personally. I’d start by making it +200% cleave after weak point kill, with only the duration scaling with blessing tier like currently. It’d still be strong for sure, but I think pretty reasonable when you also remember BM can’t refresh itself while active so you’ll always have some downtime on it.

@ZoroDaOtter

I have no idea what went through the combat devs when they designed this. Somehow, for some reason, the axe with an attack speed stat attacks slower than one that doesn’t.

No it doesn’t, actually read. The Achyls light attacks are faster than Antax, same is true when comparing their heavy attacks. Problem is what Achyls lights are basically all overheads so if you want to use BM decently you need to spam Achyls heavy 1 over and over. Naturally Achyls heavy attacks will be slower than Antax light attacks, that’s usually gonna be the case when you’re comparing heavy attacks to light attacks.

[MarxistDictator]

Let BM work on the latrine shovel first.

[Vodhawak]

Feel free to ask how many question you need:

@CataTwitchOnly

Why are you comparing heavies for power sword with lights on Axe?

Beacuse you don’t use heavys for clearing trash mobs on axe do you?
Most of axes heavys are vertical strikedown.

@CataTwitchOnly

Why are you exclusively showing Poxwalker melee trash - the one area that arguably is the one where power sword is guaranteed to look the best?

because you say there is no reason to play anything else except BM axe, that amazing horde clear ability seems pretty good reason.
Regardless here are MK2 tactical and MK8 heavis that are somehow orizontal or diagonal, offering comparison with mauler and poxwalker. PS activation does the exact same damage to armor as it does to Poxwalker so you can still use the other image as comparison.
Tactical axe

Combat axe

Note that the axes will in truth hit only one mauler unless they are able to proc BM before while PS will cleave easly through them. Not counting that PS can opt out of brutal momentum in favor of damage blessings to further the gap in damage.

@CataTwitchOnly

Why are you showing only 1 exact type of axe that you handpicked?

Because i had the screenshot already made and i didn’t want to bother to go make a dozen of screens to compare evry possible axe swing, anyway will always be inferior to PS, feel free to check yourself.

@CataTwitchOnly

Why are you comparing damage per hit instead of dps after acknowledging that not having to activate and attack speed matters?

@Vodhawak

Even if you consider the probably slightly faster attack speed of the axe the difference in dps can’t be compared.

PS outDPS axes even with lower attack speed and activation time.

@CataTwitchOnly

Why pick Power Sword specifically? I already said in my OP that damage wise it still beats out BM axes but that BM axes have major advantages over it in other areas.

@CataTwitchOnly

They are damage wise almost power sword but with much better mobility and without the need to activate the weapon. There is absolutely no reason to use anything else anymore.

Saying that damagewise BM axes are almost Powersword is like sayong Kevin Hart and Shaquille O’Neal are almost the same height.

@CataTwitchOnly

Like if you want to seem like you put in effort in your response by displaying stats, maybe make the effort to actually display comparable and useful stats rather than ones that are completely arbitrary and handpicked so they look good?

Idk man, thats not how you make an argument. Thats how you make a biased statement to fit your narrative.

Those stats are comparable, is just you that refuse to aknowledge that man.
How about you put some data in support of your thesis?

[alsozara]

It does. It’s just that the cleave distribution for Shovel is terrible. If you’re arguing it “doesn’t work” because despite still getting infinite stagger cleave you’re not doing damage past the 3rd target then you could say the same thing about Tac Axe heavies.

Or does latrine shovel have torso prioritisation and thus can’t hit head shots properly like Rashad?

[CataTwitchOnly]

@Vodhawak

Feel free to ask how many question you need:

I will make an easy to understand example for everyone following this but let me start by saying…

I find it disappointing that your takeaway here is that somehow your drivel is worth discussing. The point i was making was that you produced HILLARIOUSLY biased numbers with no context and no real world value.
Literally. You took a weapon that i already said beats axes in terms of damage (in the opening post that you clearly didnt read), you then compared that weapons powered up heavies to lights and you did this exclusively for first hit on only poxwalkers. I dont think you could possibly make a more biased post if you tried.

EXAMPLE FOLLOWING
Anyway - for anyone actually interested in the problem - let me work with some of those completly non contextual numbers you provided to make a valid argument:

You only need 75 damage on average to kill a poxwalker in 4 hits (300 health). You suggested a base damage of around 40 (wherever you took that from - usually if you work with data youd provide context - but here we are LMAO). So if you account for general class based damage multipliers (such as idk… psykers or zealots), a second blessing and refines providing damage multipliers, crits and headshots you can EASILY reach 75 average.

Now what does that mean practically?

Practically you can now kill ANY NUMBER OF POXWALKERS in 4 hits instead of the previously required number of hits that was equal to the number of poxwalkers.

20 poxwalkers? Previously 20 hits to kill - now 4.
100 Poxwalkers? Previously 100 hits to kill - now 4.
Im willingly being ridiculously biased on the pox number since obviously having 100 walkers in hitrange is unlikely but hey, if youre allowed to make hillarious statements, why not me as well.

And since youre still wondering about

@Vodhawak

Are you refferring to this?

in regards to your

@Vodhawak

You have plenty of reasons to play most other weapons, a lot of them even have acces to brutal

Let me help you find that in the opening post since it seems hard for you to spot.

@CataTwitchOnly

The downside to axes has always been that axes dont have cleave. Thats all. That was the only reason the weapons werent best in slot everywhere all the time.

@CataTwitchOnly

The problem is mostly specific to axes since other weapons dont share the same damage profile / cleave as axes and going from “okay/good cleave to insane cleave” is much much worse than going from “effectively no cleave to insane cleave”.

^This is why its a problem on axes.

I think that was significantly more approachable and coherent than your poor attempt at using data. To be fair, i didnt use those fancy tables tho, those sure look convincing /s.

PS: Before we somehow get stuck on this hillarious poxwalker line of thought id like to reemphasize that the problem with axes and brutal momentum is the whole package of value that you get by picking an axe with a blessing that allows it to ignore hitmass. The whole thing is described in detail in the OP and is not limited to this awful example arbitrarily picked by the person i’m replying to.

[zaygr]

Fatshark forgot the lessons of allowing 0% or 100% of anything.

[sant]

@CataTwitchOnly

invalidate all other melee weapons. There is absolutely no reason to use anything else

Don’t feed the troll.

[alsozara]

I disagree with that statement as well, or at very least I think it’s quite hyperbolic.

However, because I am not 12 years old, I am NOT going to call someone a troll because they said something I disagree with. It’s perfectly apparent from the rest of their post as well as their replies so far that they are being earnest. If you disagree then how about presenting an argument rather than being disingenuous?

Ultimately they’re correct, brutal momentum combat axe is in a pretty crazy spot. Extremely versatile, great against every armour type with functionally no weaknesses. That definitely sounds overtuned to me.

[1Cake]

@alsozara

Extremely versatile, great against every armour type with functionally no weaknesses. That definitely sounds overtuned to me.

They do have an opportunity cost. Not being able to run both Headtaker and Decimator is unfortunate. An Antax without BM is just a knife but worse in every way.

[alsozara]

@1Cake

An Antax without BM is just a knife but worse in every way.

Yeah I really don’t know about that one chief. I’ll wait till I actually get a HT + Deci Caxe to play around with but it’s a LOT of single target damage on paper. How badly it truly suffers against hordes is something I’ll have to play around with to really form an opinion on.

Regardless the thread is about BM on axes. You’re definitely doing plenty of damage with BM + Deci, so using that as a comparison point to other optimal weapon loadouts yeah I think it’s still a stand out pretty clearly regardless of “losing out” on having head taker as well.