Weapon balance feedback (previously focused on one handed axe)

Warhammer: Vermintide 2 Gameplay Feedback
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Hello,

I think that one-handed axe needs a bit of love (aka tweak).

If we compared it for example to Axe and Falchion, when you swing those weapons you will gain movement speed. But when you swing one-handed axe (which is obviously lighter than the same axe + falchion) your movement speed go down almost to level of executioner sword. Same story goes to dwarf’s axes. And almost the same story applies to elf, just comparing one-handed and two-handed axe.

I think that all that those one-handed axes needs is to remove the movement speed debuff. Not only it doesn’t make any sence at all, but also makes those weapon just useless (Yes you can play them, but you can play any weapon, but right now it is on bottom of the list)

Thank you

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An opinion; 1h Hammer is just a better 1h Axe. Its lights do a better job of dealing with hordes, and its heavies have (for some frakking reason) almost twice the attack speed of 1h Axe. If 1h Axe’s heavy attack speed was brought on-par with 1h Hammer/Mace, it would really have a purpose and playstyle beyond “spam light attack.”

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I’m worried the 1h axes are going to be in an even worse place come WoM launch due to their lacking CC, but hopefully FS are adjusting them in the mean time. I don’t use it on Saltz though, only on Bardin occasionally.

Getting rid of the movement debuff would help at least.

Making the heavy attacks more useful would help too. On Saltz I don’t know why I’d take it instead of the A&F as it is currently.

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Attack speed on one-handed axes are totally ok, they give a punch but are slower to do that. That is common +damage -attack speed formula.
But what I mean it is overkill to do +damage -attack speed -movement speed

When comparable weapons don’t affect the movement speed noticably or at all, but most likely it even buffs it.

We can compare something like (just estimation) an one handed axe that weights like 3kg and executioner sword that weights like 15kg, but both slow you down in the same way.

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How about not comparing it to the weapon that is blatantly OP? If Axe/Falchion is your standard then everything else needs buffs.

Axe is fairly good weapon. Out of Victor’s and Bardin’s Careers only Zealot has basically no reason to use it. I wouldn’t be against some changes, particularly the heavy attack is very bad, since it is basically only useful to break shields.

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You are right, everything else needs buff. Not significant, more like small things, but yes it needs.

Also comparing it to best available option is the proper way, because if other weapons are way behind the best option they are useless and the choice variety is zero.

Also the heavy attack on axe is absolutly fine, it is utility for breaking shields and guaranteed headshot (light attack sometimes hit shoulders)

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That’s a horrible way to balance things, Saltzpyre isn’t the only character in the game.

That’s how you get powercreep and hitting enemies with weapons that are basically nuclear warheads.

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1H axe is great on my Slayer – use it whenever I’m not tackling a horde (use my double hammers for that). Fits its role perfectly here. As well, an Ironbreaker can make good use of the 1H axe when combined with the Drakegun.

Its a niche weapon, but it does its niche very well.

As for Saltzpyre, you’re always going to run into the Axe & Falchion issue because that weapon set basically trumps every other weapon in the game, Salty or otherwise. Remove A&F from the picture, and its a niche option for Salty, but still viable if you take the role of Elite killer.

Now Kerillian’s Axe, that’s the REAL niche item…

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Just remember it is not my fault that F&A is that strong.
But if they make it that strong they have to improve other weapons to be viable.
Or nerf the strongest weapon.

But this way it kills variety of weapons you can choose from. And it is annoying to be simply forced to play one weapon, because others are way way way (I mean a long way) behind.

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If one weapon is a clear outlier (in either direction), it’s more sensible to tweak that one than everything else. Less work in all aspects, that way, and less chance for power creep (which will happen anyway, but no use embracing it). Less moving parts to screw up, too. In this particular case, A&F overshadowed both its components and other weapons, so it does need tweaking down. The same with a few of the Dwarf’s weapons.

That said, I personally have still found some use for the one-handed Axes on each character, but Victor does lose the most on that. I agree that it could use tweaking on its own (probably on the heavy attacks), but it’s really A&F that’s the actual problem.

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Edited name of topic, because we are allready speaking about all weapons on all careers.

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I’d rather they bring A&F back in line with the other options. It’s the main outlier on him after all (and the only one that is an outlier in the OP direction as BoP is getting its boss damage nerfed in WoM).

VT2 Balance works best if you look at which weapons aren’t overly UP or OP imo, but still feel good to use, like M&S on Kruber, and aim to have everything more or less around that level (with the different weapons occupying different niches).

Otherwise you end up in a situation where everytime one weapon is overtuned the rest have to be empowered to match it, and patch after patch your weapons get more and more ludicrously OP.

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I’m finding that the Dwarf has a very good balance of weapons, which gives a lot of options on play-styles. The only weapon that is really outclassed right now and shouldn’t be used is the 1H hammer, which is outclassed by the Dual Hammers. Outside of that, there is a good reason to use any of the Dwarf weapons.

For example, Dual Hammers are great at horde clear, but the 2H Hammer is still good at the role AND is better at taking out elites. The pick is the best all-around weapon, and has the super-hit which makes it play slightly differently than other weapons. The two axes are much better at killing elites and bosses, with them differing slightly depending on whether you’re willing to trade damage for cleave.

I think only Kreuber has a better balance of melee weapons.

(Now ranged weapons – its all a pile of “meh” outside of the Drakegun, which I personally aren’t a fan of but definitely see the advantages of).

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We can’t talk about any weapons without bring up A&F. Its an official rule now.

I vote to forever remove A&F from balance discussions, so we can get a true evaluation of other weapons…

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The problem is that there is only few weapons that are not uterlly under powered. (Animation canceling macros / manual animation cancelation with Q Q switch is no option in comparing weapons as it is more of a glitch/bug than intended feature or just poor design).
Writing that above, because a lot of weapons are thrown in to ground just because of really bad animations. How great would be rapier if the animations cycled just between 1st and 2nd swing and they removed the partial/full charge of heavy attacked (and made it deal damage somewhere in middle of those values). But here we are with weapon that almost nobody plays just for those reasons bad quick attack animations and too slow charged attack (on paper it is good damage, but you cannot pull that in most situations).
And list of weapons that have same problem is huge. They slow down movement speed, have bad animations, deal too litle damage. And than there is the one or two weapons that have a lot of those in good.

But saying this and this is OP nerf it, will never bring anything good.

One hand axe will be ok if they remove movement speed debuff. Heavy attack is utility for breaking shields and guaranteed headshots, that seems ok to me.

Rapier would be just great if the 1st and 2nd swing was whole attack animation cycle, removing half of the movement speed debuff and merging partially and fully charged attack into one charged attack with damage somewhere in the middle.

Never used flail so cannot tell much.

Falchion is more than less ok, but would make heavy attack go top down.

Zweihander, don’t like weapons with non-existent dodge range and dodge count, so hard to tell any tips.

Axe and Falchion needs nerf in charged attack and remove movement speed bonus.

(Personally I see it that one-handed / dual wielded weapons should have 0% impact on mevement speed on fast attacks. Heavy attack should do just a bit of slow, which is on Saltzpyres weapons ok overall, maybe except Zweihander and Flail as I don’t play those cannot tell)

This is kind of constructive topic I want to see from you guys. Not this weapon is OP. Point out what needs to go down and what up and in which way. Maybe they could take inspiration in it. But if everyone just throws in A&F is op, nothing will get tweaked, just nerfed. And no nerfing is not tweaking or balancing.
Balancing is moving everything on almost same level by improving or nerfing.

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You cannot exclude a weapon from weapon balance thread.

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Axe and falchion (individually) were great until A&F entered the fray quicker than they could say nani? The problem there is falchion used to be hands down the best all-rounder choice, so FS removed its damage to CWs on non-heavies completely. This made falchion dissatisfying to use but gave axe its niche back.

Then they added A&F. A&F literally fulfills the old falchion niche and thereby is best in slot. If anything falchion needs a bit of its AP vs CWs on regular swings back, but not all, and it’d feel great again. Axe could use a removal of the movement speed slowdown and giving heavies a use (maybe as an alternative slow their speed further but double their damage or so, anything).

A&F’s problem is that it has mobility and defenses comparable to the falchion and the axe while doing everything they can. They’ve nerfed its dodge and dodge range in WoM at least, but imo it’s still better than them. At the least they should also get rid of heavy linesman and +20% crit on push attacks, that way falchion is better on the CC/horde cleave front. Perhaps reducing A&F’s stam to two shields like glaive has (those are heavy 1h weapons after all) would be a suitable downside, dunno if it’s quite enough. Basically, keep A&F as a heavy/quick hitter but at the cost of defences and survivability.

Flail’s got an odd attack pattern, but it has its niche. It also got a bit of a buff (more stamina) in the WoM beta.

Rapier (ignoring WoM’s stagger system and WHC’s headshot bonus) isn’t my personal choice of weapon, but I know lots of people that swear by it. The stagger system will hit it bad in WoM (outside of WHC) so it might need a buff then, but as it is now it’s pretty good.

With the Zweihander I can agree, it has the problem that Kruber’s 2H blade has, it isn’t great at all on higher difficulties with all the armoured enemies about.

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For example I see weapons like rapier and halberd beign garbage, just because those weapons needs macro for animation cancelation. Because 3-4 pro youtubers can do that all day manualy, doesn’t mean it is in any way applicable to whole player base. Without actively canceling animations those weapons get great weakness. But if you get a macro they get strong. Personally I see anything even macro or red dot on monitor (or program for that) as cheating, which should result in perma ban (not speaking right now just about VT).
But if weapons needs annoying activity or 3rd party program to be effective, they are not good.
It is like promoting cheating. (If you know what I mean)

Problem I see with flail is its attack patern, combined with low damage and movement speed reduction. It technicly has only the bypassing of the shields, which few hits or pushes do too.

I have seen few people playing good with Zweihander, but it is as I mean whole topic. There is one weapon that requires nothing to achieve everything and the rest is left way behind.

Nerfing just A&F is no option. This way we will one day end with just all weapons beign bad.
I am more of a balancing everything fan.
Removing some areas which makes a huge weakness to make it more competitive on weak weapons, while lowering some overly strong areas of the strongest weapon (A&F heavy attack does just ridiculus damage).

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I’m reluctant to comment on that as that’s a combat technique kind of thing and I don’t know if other people like those weapons for the way they handle or not. I can use halberd fine (and it’s in the top tier for Kruber imo competing with executioner’s) but I don’t use macros. I also don’t continually cancel attacks, normally I weave in more dodges/maneuvering if I need to.

I definitely like weapons like the executioner’s more.

Rapier I avoid as it’s not my kind of weapon, I don’t have problems seeking headshots (I love the elf’s spear by contrast, or even S&S on Kruber and that’s definitely not meta), rapier is just not my style. It’s fun now and again for a change but that’s it for me.

I could get behind adding more attacks to the alt-attack key across the board (bashes on shields for example), so that there’s room to make the weapon’s general attack patterns smoother, but I think a community survey would have to be done before changing the base attack patterns on things like halberd etc.

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The initial question is whether the 1H axe was viable as is, or needed a buff. The problem right now with the question is that A&F is trumping every weapon in just about every role, every time. Because of this, you cannot get a sense of how the 1H axe fits into the field of options because the answer will always be “A&F is better”. 2H sword? A&F better. Rapier? A&F better. Falchion? A&F better. Hence the problem. The conclusion will always be A&F better, and thus we should nerf A&F.

Take A&F out of the conversation for just a minute, and you have a more nuanced, more interesting discussion. Compared with 2H sword, rapier, falchion, we can see the 1H axe is a decent but niche weapon. An considering this, and the positioning needed to take out elites (which is your role with this weapon), I can suddenly agree that removing the speed debuff would make this item better at its particular role, and a viable choice over the other three.

To prevent this argument from getting more tortuous – without considering A&F, I agree with your original statement. Adding in A&F, the answer is nerf A&F.

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